mba March 2002

mba@thebarn.com

41 participants
78 discussions

by Jim L. Ellingson

Greetings, Just my 2 BTU's on this discussion. LP = More energy, danger, cost. NG = cleaner, safer, cheaper, fewer BTU's. NG is a much safer/better choice. There are significant differences between LP and NG. LP has more energy (aka more hydrogen) than NG. It's dispensed at a higher pressure. So a given burner on LP vs same burner on NG (same jet or orifice). LP = more heat (say 2X). Same burner, different orifice, LP=more heat (Say 1.4X). LP is heavier than NG, and air. LP will not mix. It will fow to the low point and pool there. NG is comparable to air, mixes with it, will dissipate. Cheers, Jim Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:08:33 -0800 From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb(a)stanford.edu> Subject: Propane to natural gas conversion I asked a few digests back about whether to believe the numbers I had read in the digest about jet orifice size for these two gasses. Here are the responses I've received, with their predicted answers: ************************* If it was me, I'd buy a second jet and drill it until I got what looked to be an oversized hole. Then drill the first one just one size smaller. [I like this suggestion the best, even though it costs money--JB] ************************* I would go by the ratio of sizes not the absolute - remember that the jet and burner go together and different burners will use different jet sizes. Only open up the jet to the same ratio. i.e.: .0625 what you started with (.04?) - ---------- = ----------------------------------------- .11 what you should end up with [Should this be the ratio of their areas? In either case it's .062", assuming .035 starting diameter--JB] ************************* To run a Methane (NG) burner with a #60 (.040) jet on Propane (LP) it would require a #72 (.025) jet. The approximate ratio is the Natural Gas jet is 1.6 times bigger than the Propane (LP jet*1.6 = NG jet or LP jet/1.6 = NG jet) [This works out to .056"--JB] ************************* [From the guy's gas company, edited-JB] Our NG is regulated to 7" of water (~.25 PSI?). To get 100kbtu, use a #22 bit. But anything over 40 kbtu should have a separate regulator. Use a 3.5" regulator and a #15 bit to drill the orifice block. [According to the Grainger catalog, #22=.157", #15=.180" But I thought NG was .5 PSI, so maybe this guy's is low and so I should be using a smaller hole?--JB] Anyway, if you end up overdrilling the orifice, couldn't you just limit the gas via a valve between the house and the burner? ************************* So, I've already gone to .078 and the flame keeps getting bigger. The suggestions I've received are .056, .062, .11 (archives), and .157. Sounds like the first approach wins, unless I hear something definitive soon. Thanks to: Richard Seyler, RooJahMon, Owen A. King, and Ray Kruse - -- Jeremy Bergsman jeremybb(a)leland.stanford.edu http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb ------------------------------ End of HOMEBREW Digest #2625, 02/01/98 ************************************* ------- Shane, I've been using one for a couple of years, and really like it. I got the idea from John Isenhour. BTU rating is something like 35,000 BTU's. They do eat a lot of O2, but are much cleaner and much safer than propane IMNSHO. I dual heat my keg-tles. I have an electric water heater element installed, and I run it at 110 V or about 1100 watts. Works for me. I'll suggest something other than a ball valve for metering. It works ok, but is rather course. Keep in mind that NG pressure is about 6 inches of water of roughly .25 psi, so you can't have too much of a restriction in the line. (That is, a needle valve may be too restrictive.) Modern NG WH burners are designed to heat the inside of a cylinder, not the bottom of a kettle. I've acquired, but not tried, a couple of "antique" WH burners that have more jets and have the jets pointing straight up, (instead of out at/towards the inside of a cylinder.) Code requires that a burner of this size be vented. Your hood will probably work. The box fan in my kitchen window seems to work fine. Like most any other burner, you'll get maximum efficiency (only) at the max or rated o/p (probably 35 kBTU's.) You may need to adjust the air mix. I've got mine full open (proabably to account for the fact that it's not vented and so doesn't have a chimney *drawing* on it.) Post this to the digest if you like, but I WILL NOT ENGAGE IN ANY DEBATES ABOUT THE MERITS/SAFETY of different burners. My system is designed for occasional, SUPERVISED operation by an engineer. If you're not comfortable with any aspect of your burner set up, then you probably shouldn't be using it.... More burner thoughts. CO: If it smells "dirty" it probably is. Had access to a CO detector. Took just 30 minutes to get the CO level up over 200 ppm (lethal) using a Superb 35k BTU burner and NG in a large house! Box fan in the window over the kettle helped. Also required "outside air feed" from across the room. (January in MN, T=0^F). BUT the most effective *fix* was to adjust the burner! Gave it "Full Air" (I suggest removing the air adjuster on the Superb.) and back off on the NG just a bit. Get rid of the orange flame tips and the odor, and the CO level will drop to less than 20 ppm.... Propane vs NG. Propane has more energy, and is at a higher pressure. Therefore, the NG opening or orifice needs to be about twice the diameter of the propane orifice. If you have one, want the other, plug the old one w/ a screw, and drill a new one of the appropo size (twice or half the diameter). Propane is more dangerous. It's heavier than air, will sink, will not mix as readily, and therefore is explosive over a much wider range of "fuel-air" ratios. NG is lighter than air, has less energy, burns cleaner and is cheaper. If you can swing it, NG is the way to go.... Good brewing, Jim ------------------------------ http://www.menet.umn.edu/~jellings/ * * Dr. James Lee (Jim) Ellingson Ph.D. jellings(a)me.umn.edu * * University of Minnesota, 125 Mech. Engr. tel 651/645-0753 * * 1569 Laurel Ave., St. Paul, MN 55104 fax * ----- End of forwarded message from Jim Ellingson -----

23 years, 8 months

Re: FW: AHA-NHC Great Lakes call for judges/stewards

by allan.boyce＠usbank.com

AND the first round of the Upper Mississippi Mash-Out judging! - Al "Christopher Hadden" To: "MBA List" <mba(a)thebarn.com> <chadden@contec cc: rayon.com> Subject: FW: AHA-NHC Great Lakes call for judges/stewards Sent by: owner-mba@theba rn.com 03/18/2002 09:33 AM Argh! This is when the BJCP exam is taking place! Chris -----Original Message----- From: owner-mba(a)thebarn.com [mailto:owner-mba@thebarn.com] On Behalf Of SPARROW, JEFFREY C. [IT/1825] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 7:24 AM To: CBS-HB(a)LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: AHA-NHC Great Lakes call for judges/stewards Call for judges and stewards for the AHA National Homebrew Competition 1st Round judging to be held at the Rock Bottom, 1 West Grand Ave. at State in Downtown Chicago. Judging this year will be held on the weekend of April 26-28 with primary judging on Saturday, April 27 beginning at 9:00 a.m. This year we have reacquired 1 state (Ohio) which puts our projected count at over 500 entries. We'd love to complete the judging in as short a time as possible but can only do this with adequate judge and steward support. Lunch will be provided by Rock Bottom's award-winning chef Chip Fegert and beer will be supplied by their equally award-winning brewer Pete Crowley. If that's not enough, we "may" even go out for a beer or two after the judging is completed on Saturday. The Rock Bottom is a scant few feet away from the Grand Ave. stop of the Red Line "L". It is also a brisk walk or a quick cab ride from the 3 downtown Metra Stations. Nearby parking is also available. Contact Joe Preiser at jpreiser(a)attbi.com or 630.759.4659 to confirm your attendance. Please note whether you will judge or steward and WHICH DAYS you will be available. Out-of-towners may also inquire as to the availability of beds-for-brewers. Join us for some great homebrew, food and commercial beer. See you there. jeff sparrow jeff(a)chibeer.org national homebrew competition - site coordinator

23 years, 8 months

FW: AHA-NHC Great Lakes call for judges/stewards

by Christopher Hadden

Argh! This is when the BJCP exam is taking place! Chris -----Original Message----- From: owner-mba(a)thebarn.com [mailto:owner-mba@thebarn.com] On Behalf Of SPARROW, JEFFREY C. [IT/1825] Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 7:24 AM To: CBS-HB(a)LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: AHA-NHC Great Lakes call for judges/stewards Call for judges and stewards for the AHA National Homebrew Competition 1st Round judging to be held at the Rock Bottom, 1 West Grand Ave. at State in Downtown Chicago. Judging this year will be held on the weekend of April 26-28 with primary judging on Saturday, April 27 beginning at 9:00 a.m. This year we have reacquired 1 state (Ohio) which puts our projected count at over 500 entries. We'd love to complete the judging in as short a time as possible but can only do this with adequate judge and steward support. Lunch will be provided by Rock Bottom's award-winning chef Chip Fegert and beer will be supplied by their equally award-winning brewer Pete Crowley. If that's not enough, we "may" even go out for a beer or two after the judging is completed on Saturday. The Rock Bottom is a scant few feet away from the Grand Ave. stop of the Red Line "L". It is also a brisk walk or a quick cab ride from the 3 downtown Metra Stations. Nearby parking is also available. Contact Joe Preiser at jpreiser(a)attbi.com or 630.759.4659 to confirm your attendance. Please note whether you will judge or steward and WHICH DAYS you will be available. Out-of-towners may also inquire as to the availability of beds-for-brewers. Join us for some great homebrew, food and commercial beer. See you there. jeff sparrow jeff(a)chibeer.org national homebrew competition - site coordinator

23 years, 8 months

Burner BTUs

by Christopher Hadden

I'm contemplating switching to natural gas for my brewing system. One burner I'm looking at is rated at 27,000 BTUs. If I had two of these (1 for hot liquor, 1 for mash/kettle), is this going to be sufficient for 5 gal. batches? Or should I stick with the higher-pressure propane? Who brews with natural gas? What's your burner rated at and how does it work? Thanks for the help, Chris

23 years, 8 months

AHA-NHC Great Lakes call for judges/stewards

by SPARROW, JEFFREY C. [IT/1825]

Call for judges and stewards for the AHA National Homebrew Competition 1st Round judging to be held at the Rock Bottom, 1 West Grand Ave. at State in Downtown Chicago. Judging this year will be held on the weekend of April 26-28 with primary judging on Saturday, April 27 beginning at 9:00 a.m. This year we have reacquired 1 state (Ohio) which puts our projected count at over 500 entries. We'd love to complete the judging in as short a time as possible but can only do this with adequate judge and steward support. Lunch will be provided by Rock Bottom's award-winning chef Chip Fegert and beer will be supplied by their equally award-winning brewer Pete Crowley. If that's not enough, we "may" even go out for a beer or two after the judging is completed on Saturday. The Rock Bottom is a scant few feet away from the Grand Ave. stop of the Red Line "L". It is also a brisk walk or a quick cab ride from the 3 downtown Metra Stations. Nearby parking is also available. Contact Joe Preiser at jpreiser(a)attbi.com or 630.759.4659 to confirm your attendance. Please note whether you will judge or steward and WHICH DAYS you will be available. Out-of-towners may also inquire as to the availability of beds-for-brewers. Join us for some great homebrew, food and commercial beer. See you there. jeff sparrow jeff(a)chibeer.org national homebrew competition - site coordinator

23 years, 8 months

Re: Cool Web Site

by Jim Herrick

Done. It's at: http://mnbrewers.com/cyberbrau/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Larson" <rick(a)mnbrewers.com> To: "Jim Herrick" <jim(a)bleedpurple.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Cool Web Site > Jim, > Have you looked at this? > > I did but my apache web server isn't configured for php4 :-(. > > If you have this installed at mnbrewers.com, let me know. > > I think it might be a nice way to collaborate recipe ideas > with our brewing partners. > > rick > > > This is a pretty cool idea for a web site: > > http://www.cyberbrau.org/ > > > > The site uses open-source (PHP, free) web-based software also called > > CyberBrau. It can be found at: > > http://www.hotscripts.com/Detailed/13307.html > > > > Here the description: > > Cyberbrau is a Web-based program to help the homebrewer. It allows for very > > simple and intuitive recipe creation, and it automatically calulates all the > > pertinant information based on the selected ingredients and schedule. In > > addition to the recipes, it allows multiple brewers to track their batches, > > emailing them on racking, bottling, and lagering dates. Finally, it has a > > 'taster's review' section which allows those who try your brew to rate and > > comment on the batch. This information goes into the overall recipe ranking. > > > > If anyone would like to play with it, I'd be willing to host a site, or > > possibly just a directory from MNBREWERS.COM, like BREW.MNBREWERS.COM or > > something. Let me know if there's any interest... > > > > Jim >

23 years, 8 months

Mesquite honey? Mesquite mead recipes?

by allan.boyce＠usbank.com

Does anybody know a source for Mesquite honey? Does anyone have any good mesquite honey mead recipes? - Al

23 years, 8 months

RE: Re: Beer keg registration signed into law

by Paul_Dienhart＠cargill.com

Sounds like a bumper sticker opportunity: "You can have my keg when you pry the tapper from my cold, dead fingers." -----Original Message----- From: "jason_nelson"@uhc.com [mailto:"jason_nelson"@uhc.com] Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 3:40 PM To: mba(a)thebarn.com Subject: Re: Beer keg registration signed into law I think your loophole is right before your eyes. The definition of beer keg is a brewery-sealed container. It doesn't say anything about home-sealed or unsealed containers. I highly doubt that any agents of peace or public safety will be knocking on your door wanting to check your kegs anyway. They might if they catch wind that you're serving to minors. If that is the case, then you'll have more to worry about than your keg's registration status. Leaving aside the argument of whether this is an effective measure or not, the intent of this law is fairly clear. This isn't to say that some overzealous young cop and/or prosecutor might decide to make things difficult for an otherwise law-abiding citizen. Ryan Sinn <ryan(a)wizardtechnologies.net> on 03/15/2002 02:08:14 PM To: mba(a)thebarn.com cc: (bcc: Jason Nelson/MN/Unitedmail) Subject: Re: Beer keg registration signed into law not to mock MADD or anything, but according to their website Keg Registration reduces/prevents Date Rape, STDS and Unplanned Pregnancies... http://www.maddmn.org/keg.html ** WE SHOULD HAVE IMPLEMENTED THIS YEARS AGO!! ** Seriously though... here's the actual bill text... http://www.senate.leg.state.mn.us/departments/scr/billsumm/SF389.HTM http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/getbill.pl?number=SF0389&session… What bothers me is Sec. 1 Subd. 1(a): "Beer keg" means any brewery-sealed single container that contains not less than four gallons of malt liquor. Now they're talking 4gal not 7gal... the bill summary states 7gal, but the actual bill text states 4gal... what's up with that? The only bill text I could find is from Jan25th 2001, so maybe they've revised it... but the bill text should have been updated. The other thing that bothers me is Sec. 1 Subd. 6(c): No person other than a wholesaler or retailer licensed or authorized under this chapter to sell malt liquor may possess a beer keg which does not bear the identification required under subdivision 3. Just my two cents... Time to call my reps again... or maybe it's time to run? Ryan On Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:55:24AM -0800, LJ Vitt wrote: > As far as the last campout: > Lindemans was what ever the europe uses as quarter barrels. (25l?) > That may have been the smallest key the law covers. > Celebrator was european half barrel (50l?) > > Ron and Wayne had pins - under 6 gallons. > Ray had an 8 gallon Hoff Stevens keg. > > There were numerous 5 gallon cornies. > > That sounds like 3 soon to be illegal containers and the interclub campout. > > ----------- > > On the more serious side -- > > What does this mean for festivals like Autumn Brew Review? > Does Pioneer brewing in Wisconsin have to register their kegs > to come to Minnesota and pour beer at the festival? > > To transport beer to the Great Taste of Midwest, do Minn > brewpubs have to register their kegs? > > The loop hole might be - Kegs SOLD must be registered. > > - Leo > > --- Steve Piatz <piatz(a)cray.com> wrote: > > I really needed another mother to help keep track of what I do :-) > > > > Seriously, what happens with the various containers I have that > > are 7 gallons or larger that just happen to be usable as > > homebrew serving containers. I have one half barrel and two > > quarter barrels plus a couple of 10 gallon cornies that aren't > > registered and never will be - wonder what the penaly is? I > > even have more than a few carboys that are 7 gallons or > > larger. > > > > I can just see the law enforcement folks checking the kegs' > > registration at next summer's multiclub campout. I know those > > kegs of Lindemanns and Celebrator at last summer's event were > > over 7 gallons. Not sure about everyting on the beer engines, > > most everything else was in 5 gallon cornies. I suppose the > > law will help the sales of those 5 gallon sankey type cornies > > since they are small enough to avoid registration :-) > > > > We have a lot of stupid people around here that provide kegs > > for their (underage) kids' parties but do we have to compensate > > with stupid laws? > > > > > > Where is our growler bill? > > > > > > Betsy Kremser writes: > > > > > > Star Tribune > > > > > > Beer keg registration signed into law > > > > > > > > > Published Mar 15, 2002 > > > > > > Beginning in August, all beer kegs sold in > > > Minnesota must be registered by liquor > > > stores in a new effort to keep alcohol away > > > from minors. > > > > > > Gov. Jesse Ventura signed a bill Wednesday > > > Wednesday enacting the requirement, which > > > had been sought for years by Mothers > > > Against Drunk Driving and anti-youth-drinking > > > groups but blocked until recently by liquor > > > industry opposition. > > > > > > The law will require liquor stores to file the > > > names and signatures of buyers of 7-gallon > > > and larger beer kegs and label them with > > > registration numbers, the retailer's name, > > > address and telephone number and the date > > > and time of purchase. > > > > > > Police say they often break up "kegger" > > > parties of underage drinkers but cannot > > > trace who provided the beer. Keg tags will > > > discourage adults from the most common > > > means of furnishing alcohol to minors, > > > proponents say. > > > > > > The bill, sponsored by Rep. Steve Dehler, > > > R-St. Joseph, was approved 114 to 20 by > > > the House last year and 60 to 0 by the > > > Senate last Friday. > > > > > > -- Conrad deFiebre > > > > > > > > > -- > > Steve Piatz piatz(a)cray.com > > Cray Inc. 651-605-9049 > > 1340 Mendota Heights Road > > Mendota Heights, MN 55120 > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > http://sports.yahoo.com/ -- ------------------------------------------ Ryan Sinn Wizard Technologies Web and Networking Solutions ------------------------------------------ office : 763.783.5721 e-mail : ryan(a)wizardtechnologies.net url : http://wizardtechnologies.net/ ------------------------------------------

23 years, 8 months

Re: Beer keg registration signed into law

by Jason Nelson

I think your loophole is right before your eyes. The definition of beer keg is a brewery-sealed container. It doesn't say anything about home-sealed or unsealed containers. I highly doubt that any agents of peace or public safety will be knocking on your door wanting to check your kegs anyway. They might if they catch wind that you're serving to minors. If that is the case, then you'll have more to worry about than your keg's registration status. Leaving aside the argument of whether this is an effective measure or not, the intent of this law is fairly clear. This isn't to say that some overzealous young cop and/or prosecutor might decide to make things difficult for an otherwise law-abiding citizen. Ryan Sinn <ryan(a)wizardtechnologies.net> on 03/15/2002 02:08:14 PM To: mba(a)thebarn.com cc: (bcc: Jason Nelson/MN/Unitedmail) Subject: Re: Beer keg registration signed into law not to mock MADD or anything, but according to their website Keg Registration reduces/prevents Date Rape, STDS and Unplanned Pregnancies... http://www.maddmn.org/keg.html ** WE SHOULD HAVE IMPLEMENTED THIS YEARS AGO!! ** Seriously though... here's the actual bill text... http://www.senate.leg.state.mn.us/departments/scr/billsumm/SF389.HTM http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/getbill.pl?number=SF0389&session… What bothers me is Sec. 1 Subd. 1(a): "Beer keg" means any brewery-sealed single container that contains not less than four gallons of malt liquor. Now they're talking 4gal not 7gal... the bill summary states 7gal, but the actual bill text states 4gal... what's up with that? The only bill text I could find is from Jan25th 2001, so maybe they've revised it... but the bill text should have been updated. The other thing that bothers me is Sec. 1 Subd. 6(c): No person other than a wholesaler or retailer licensed or authorized under this chapter to sell malt liquor may possess a beer keg which does not bear the identification required under subdivision 3. Just my two cents... Time to call my reps again... or maybe it's time to run? Ryan On Fri, Mar 15, 2002 at 11:55:24AM -0800, LJ Vitt wrote: > As far as the last campout: > Lindemans was what ever the europe uses as quarter barrels. (25l?) > That may have been the smallest key the law covers. > Celebrator was european half barrel (50l?) > > Ron and Wayne had pins - under 6 gallons. > Ray had an 8 gallon Hoff Stevens keg. > > There were numerous 5 gallon cornies. > > That sounds like 3 soon to be illegal containers and the interclub campout. > > ----------- > > On the more serious side -- > > What does this mean for festivals like Autumn Brew Review? > Does Pioneer brewing in Wisconsin have to register their kegs > to come to Minnesota and pour beer at the festival? > > To transport beer to the Great Taste of Midwest, do Minn > brewpubs have to register their kegs? > > The loop hole might be - Kegs SOLD must be registered. > > - Leo > > --- Steve Piatz <piatz(a)cray.com> wrote: > > I really needed another mother to help keep track of what I do :-) > > > > Seriously, what happens with the various containers I have that > > are 7 gallons or larger that just happen to be usable as > > homebrew serving containers. I have one half barrel and two > > quarter barrels plus a couple of 10 gallon cornies that aren't > > registered and never will be - wonder what the penaly is? I > > even have more than a few carboys that are 7 gallons or > > larger. > > > > I can just see the law enforcement folks checking the kegs' > > registration at next summer's multiclub campout. I know those > > kegs of Lindemanns and Celebrator at last summer's event were > > over 7 gallons. Not sure about everyting on the beer engines, > > most everything else was in 5 gallon cornies. I suppose the > > law will help the sales of those 5 gallon sankey type cornies > > since they are small enough to avoid registration :-) > > > > We have a lot of stupid people around here that provide kegs > > for their (underage) kids' parties but do we have to compensate > > with stupid laws? > > > > > > Where is our growler bill? > > > > > > Betsy Kremser writes: > > > > > > Star Tribune > > > > > > Beer keg registration signed into law > > > > > > > > > Published Mar 15, 2002 > > > > > > Beginning in August, all beer kegs sold in > > > Minnesota must be registered by liquor > > > stores in a new effort to keep alcohol away > > > from minors. > > > > > > Gov. Jesse Ventura signed a bill Wednesday > > > Wednesday enacting the requirement, which > > > had been sought for years by Mothers > > > Against Drunk Driving and anti-youth-drinking > > > groups but blocked until recently by liquor > > > industry opposition. > > > > > > The law will require liquor stores to file the > > > names and signatures of buyers of 7-gallon > > > and larger beer kegs and label them with > > > registration numbers, the retailer's name, > > > address and telephone number and the date > > > and time of purchase. > > > > > > Police say they often break up "kegger" > > > parties of underage drinkers but cannot > > > trace who provided the beer. Keg tags will > > > discourage adults from the most common > > > means of furnishing alcohol to minors, > > > proponents say. > > > > > > The bill, sponsored by Rep. Steve Dehler, > > > R-St. Joseph, was approved 114 to 20 by > > > the House last year and 60 to 0 by the > > > Senate last Friday. > > > > > > -- Conrad deFiebre > > > > > > > > > -- > > Steve Piatz piatz(a)cray.com > > Cray Inc. 651-605-9049 > > 1340 Mendota Heights Road > > Mendota Heights, MN 55120 > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > http://sports.yahoo.com/ -- ------------------------------------------ Ryan Sinn Wizard Technologies Web and Networking Solutions ------------------------------------------ office : 763.783.5721 e-mail : ryan(a)wizardtechnologies.net url : http://wizardtechnologies.net/ ------------------------------------------

23 years, 8 months

LAST CALL: Porter Club-Only contest

by allan.boyce＠usbank.com

Any entries? Tonite at 7pm, my house. Al Boyce 3208 Edgewood Ave S St.Louis Park, MN 55426 (952) 927-8968 >From Hwy 100 West on Hwy 7 North on Wooddale West (left) on 33rd North (right) on Edgewood White with green trim on left. - Al

23 years, 8 months

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