Just a quick reminder the west-side meeting is tonight at 7 at WTBC. I
have a feeling we'll have a turnout between 1 and 75, with my guess being
closer to 1. Not that it's a problem--I still have enough barleywine and
anniversary ale for Bob, Damian, Will and myself to drown our sorrows!
David Berg
President, Minnesota Craft Brewer's Guild
Head Brewer, Water Tower Brewing Company
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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>Delivered-To: mpv(a)nospam.mc.mpls.visi.com
>From: Nate Maddux <natem(a)transition.com>
>To: "'louieb(a)paulbunyan.net'" <louieb(a)paulbunyan.net>,
> "'fpmc07b(a)prodigy.com'" <fpmc07b(a)prodigy.com>,
> "'molson(a)midstate.tds.net'" <molson(a)midstate.tds.net>,
> "'thomp013(a)maroon.tc.umn.edu'" <thomp013(a)maroon.tc.umn.edu>,
> "'MValentiner(a)tiny.net'" <MValentiner(a)tiny.net>,
> "'shamblin(a)mayo.edu'" <shamblin(a)mayo.edu>,
> "'billodo(a)rosemount.com'" <billodo(a)rosemount.com>,
> "'john.rosnow(a)damark.com'" <john.rosnow(a)damark.com>,
> "'mjhopman(a)mninter.net'" <mjhopman(a)mninter.net>
>Subject: extract setup available for sale
>Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:15:35 -0600
>X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0 required=6 tests= version=2.0
>
>
>Greetings, fellow MN homebrewers-
>
>I wanted to pass on a quick inquiry for your club members:
>
>Last November I purchased an intermediate homebrew kit from a local brewshop
>and began upgrading it on my own by purchasing some books and adding
>additional bottling, fermenting and racking accessories. For reasons beyond
>my control I am now selling my entire setup (sob), which now has a total
>value of $200+. I have brewed a total of two batches (read: underappreciated
>hobby), so the equipment has been kept extremely clean, sanitized and stored
>in a large Rubbermaid container. (For what it's worth, both batches, a nut
>brown ale from Midwest and an imperial stout from Wind River, turned out
>fantastic.) Beginner's luck maybe?
>
>In any case, I would like to pass the kit on at a very reasonable price-- if
>any of you are looking for a gift idea or would like to add to your own
>extract-brewing equipment, please give me a call at (952)249-0191. I am in
>Minnetonka but would be happy to drop by with the equipment at your
>location.
>
>Cheers,
>Nate
--
Michael Valentiner, Minneapolis, Minnesota
mpv(a)yuck.net
Hi,
This was forwarded to me and I thought this would be the best spot to
forward this onto. Kirby was a really great guy to talk to and very
interested in homebrewing. Could someone please send him information on the
local clubs down there.
Thanks,
Susan
: -----Original Message-----
: From: Kirby Richter [mailto:KirbyR@magenic.com]
: Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:12 AM
: To: 'dean.gundberg(a)noridian.com'
: Subject: RE: [phc-club] Papazian Article in the Forum
:
:
: Hi Dean:
:
: How are you doing?
:
: In case you havent guessed I've been back in Mpls for the last few weeks.
: Looks like I wont be back up in Fargo for awhile.
:
: Thanks for inviting me to the PHC club meeting. That was lots of fun.
:
: I'm trying to find out about the homebrewing clubs in the twin cities?
Can
: you forward this on to someone who might know about the clubs.
:
: I live in Eden Prairie so would like a club in the south-west area of the
: twin cities.
:
: Thanks
: Kirby
Just as a reminder. On saturday March 23rd, at 1:00pm the March Mashness
best of show will be held. We will be having a special guest. Larry Bell,
from the Kalamazoo Brewing Company, or better known as Bell's Beer, will
emcee the event. He will be staying the weekend and arriving in St. Cloud
on Friday. It will be held in St. Cloud at the Granite City Food & Brewery,
so if you can come up to see the event, or just to see and meet Larry Bell.
Erik Nelson
March Mashness Organizer
You drank all the English Pale Ale, now we need to release another beer.
This Friday, 3/22, from 5-6pm we will release our Red Ale. This time we made
it very caramel sweet and toasty. So come in on Friday from 5-6pm and have a
pint or two for just $.50 per.
Cheers
Mike
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Greetings fellow Beer-lings!
Due to last week's storm, the BJCP class was cancelled...
Therefore - you have a SECOND opportunity to join us for
BELGIAN NIGHT!
You are all welcome to attend BJCP class #9 at Al Boyce's house
this Thursday, March 21, 2002 at 6pm. Call Al at 952-927-8968
for information.
Styles:
18.A. Strong Belgian Ale: Dubbel
18.B. Strong Belgian Ale: Tripel
18.C. Strong Belgian Ale: Belgian Strong Golden Ale
18.D. Strong Belgian Ale: Belgian Strong Dark Ale
19.C. Belgian and French Ale: Biere De Garde
19.D. Belgian and French Ale: Saison
If anyone has any HOME-BREWED examples of these, please consider bringing
them to this class for the edification of all.
Technical topic: Troubleshooting II.
See you then!
- Al Boyce
Here is some general information about NG, Propane, and combustion.
Propane is heavier than air and NG is lighter than air. This is why a house explosion with NG blows up the top floors and a propane gas explosion blows up the basement.
If your house blows up and a propane cylinder is in the basement, you may be disqualified for insurance.
During heavy demand, our gas company switches between NG and propane. Propane is mixed with air so the BTU content is similar and the orificing does not need to be changed. This is usually a daily occurrence (last year) when demand exceeded supply and the country was building Enron.
Carbon Monoxide is very dangerous and is too easy to produce. During initial firing with a cold burner, stock pot, or vessel, the flame condenses and creates large quantities of CO. After warming up, a well balanced flame produces little to no CO but large quantities of C02. Humans and fire requires Oxygen.
Dark accumulations on the bottom of stock pots, kegs, buckets indicates a poor air-gas mixture. Yellow flames indicate a really poor air-gas mixture. Suburb burners are a challenge to adjust and usually operate too rich (CO). Even after removal of the air throttle valve, I ended up filing our the venturi to try to better balance the mixture (lean out).
Cast iron burners with top jets corrode. The best way to clean the jets is with a small drill (same size it was originally drilled with) by moving the drill in and out of the hole by hand. Similar to using a tip cleaner in an Oxy-acetylene torch. After cleaning, make sure the rust is removed by using the generally accepted laws of gravity.
Combustion by-products disrupt overhead combustion. Do not position one burner above another without adequate waste gas diversion. The lower column of hot CO2 will disrupt the top flame and generate significant CO.
Boil overs extinguish flames. Most burners operate without safety shutdowns so if you have a burner that is operating, make sure it remains lit and operate it outside.
Converting a propane burner to NG creates more gas noise due to the larger orifice.
Hope this helps clear the air....... {(:-)}
Rick
Just as well - I'm married anyway... but for a woman who buys her man BEER
SYSTEMS....?????
- Al
"Christopher
Hadden" To: allan.boyce(a)usbank.com
<chadden@contec cc: "Jim L. Ellingson" <jellings(a)me.umn.edu>,
rayon.com> mba(a)thebarn.com, owner-mba(a)thebarn.com
Subject: RE: LP vs Natural Gas
03/18/2002
03:45 PM
Sorry Al, she's an only child!!!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-mba(a)thebarn.com [mailto:owner-mba@thebarn.com]On Behalf Of
> allan.boyce(a)usbank.com
> Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 11:32 AM
> To: Christopher Hadden
> Cc: Jim L. Ellingson; mba(a)thebarn.com; owner-mba(a)thebarn.com
> Subject: RE: LP vs Natural Gas
>
>
>
> Your wife is buying you a BEER system? Does she have any sisters?
>
> - Al
>
>
>
>
> "Christopher
>
> Hadden" To: "Jim L.
> Ellingson" <jellings(a)me.umn.edu>,
> <chadden@contec mba(a)thebarn.com
>
> rayon.com> cc:
>
> Sent by: Subject: RE: LP vs
> Natural Gas
> owner-mba@theba
>
> rn.com
>
>
>
>
>
> 03/18/2002
>
> 11:21 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm totally with you on the points you bring up. These are some of the
> reasons why I'm switching to NG. But the best reason is that my wife is
> buying me a system from MoreBeer.com! ;-)
>
> Thanks to everyone for the advice. I just wasn't sure if 27,000 BTUs
would
> do the trick. From what I've heard, it should work really well.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Chris
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-mba(a)thebarn.com [mailto:owner-mba@thebarn.com]On Behalf Of
> > Jim L. Ellingson
> > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 11:13 AM
> > To: mba(a)thebarn.com
> > Subject: LP vs Natural Gas
> >
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Just my 2 BTU's on this discussion.
> >
> > LP = More energy, danger, cost.
> >
> > NG = cleaner, safer, cheaper, fewer BTU's.
> >
> > NG is a much safer/better choice.
> >
> >
> >
> > There are significant differences between LP and NG.
> >
> > LP has more energy (aka more hydrogen) than NG.
> >
> > It's dispensed at a higher pressure.
> >
> > So a given burner on LP vs same burner on NG
> > (same jet or orifice). LP = more heat (say 2X).
> > Same burner, different orifice, LP=more heat (Say 1.4X).
> >
> >
> > LP is heavier than NG, and air. LP will not mix.
> > It will fow to the low point and pool there.
> >
> > NG is comparable to air, mixes with it, will dissipate.
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:08:33 -0800
> > From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb(a)stanford.edu>
> > Subject: Propane to natural gas conversion
> >
> > I asked a few digests back about whether to believe the numbers I
> > had read in the digest about jet orifice size for these two gasses.
> > Here are the responses I've received, with their predicted answers:
> >
> > *************************
> > If it was me, I'd buy a second jet and drill it until I got what looked
> > to be an oversized hole. Then drill the first one just one size
> > smaller.
> >
> > [I like this suggestion the best, even though it costs money--JB]
> > *************************
> > I would go by the ratio of sizes not the absolute - remember that the
> > jet and burner go together and different burners will use different jet
> > sizes. Only open up the jet to the same ratio. i.e.:
> >
> > .0625 what you started with (.04?)
> > - ---------- = -----------------------------------------
> > .11 what you should end up with
> >
> > [Should this be the ratio of their areas? In either case it's
> > .062", assuming .035 starting diameter--JB]
> >
> > *************************
> > To run a
> > Methane (NG) burner with a #60 (.040) jet on Propane (LP) it would
> > require a #72 (.025) jet. The approximate ratio is the Natural Gas jet
> > is 1.6 times bigger than the Propane (LP jet*1.6 = NG jet or
> > LP jet/1.6 = NG jet)
> >
> > [This works out to .056"--JB]
> >
> > *************************
> > [From the guy's gas company, edited-JB]
> > Our NG is regulated to 7" of water (~.25 PSI?). To get 100kbtu, use a
> #22
> > bit. But anything over 40 kbtu should have a separate regulator. Use
a
> > 3.5" regulator and a #15 bit to drill the orifice block.
> >
> > [According to the Grainger catalog, #22=.157", #15=.180" But I thought
> > NG was .5 PSI, so maybe this guy's is low and so I should be using a
> > smaller hole?--JB]
> >
> > Anyway, if you end up overdrilling the orifice, couldn't
> > you just limit the gas via a valve between the house and the burner?
> >
> > *************************
> > So, I've already gone to .078 and the flame keeps getting bigger. The
> > suggestions I've received are .056, .062, .11 (archives), and .157.
> > Sounds like the first approach wins, unless I hear something definitive
> > soon.
> >
> > Thanks to:
> > Richard Seyler, RooJahMon, Owen A. King, and Ray Kruse
> > - --
> > Jeremy Bergsman
> > jeremybb(a)leland.stanford.edu
> > http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > End of HOMEBREW Digest #2625, 02/01/98
> > *************************************
> > -------
> >
> >
> >
> > Shane,
> >
> > I've been using one for a couple of years, and
> > really like it. I got the idea from John Isenhour.
> > BTU rating is something like 35,000 BTU's.
> > They do eat a lot of O2, but are much cleaner
> > and much safer than propane IMNSHO.
> >
> > I dual heat my keg-tles. I have an electric water
> > heater element installed, and I run it at 110 V or
> > about 1100 watts. Works for me.
> >
> > I'll suggest something other than a ball valve for
> > metering. It works ok, but is rather course.
> > Keep in mind that NG pressure is about 6 inches of
> > water of roughly .25 psi, so you can't have
> > too much of a restriction in the line.
> > (That is, a needle valve may be too restrictive.)
> >
> > Modern NG WH burners are designed to heat the inside
> > of a cylinder, not the bottom of a kettle. I've acquired,
> > but not tried, a couple of "antique" WH burners that
> > have more jets and have the jets pointing straight up,
> > (instead of out at/towards the inside of a cylinder.)
> >
> > Code requires that a burner of this size be vented.
> > Your hood will probably work. The box fan in my
> > kitchen window seems to work fine.
> >
> > Like most any other burner, you'll get maximum efficiency
> > (only) at the max or rated o/p (probably 35 kBTU's.) You
> > may need to adjust the air mix. I've got mine full open
> > (proabably to account for the fact that it's not vented
> > and so doesn't have a chimney *drawing* on it.)
> >
> > Post this to the digest if you like, but I WILL NOT
> > ENGAGE IN ANY DEBATES ABOUT THE MERITS/SAFETY of different
> > burners. My system is designed for occasional, SUPERVISED
> > operation by an engineer. If you're not comfortable with
> > any aspect of your burner set up, then you probably shouldn't
> > be using it....
> >
> > More burner thoughts.
> >
> > CO: If it smells "dirty" it probably is. Had access to
> > a CO detector. Took just 30 minutes to get the CO level
> > up over 200 ppm (lethal) using a Superb 35k BTU burner and NG in
> > a large house! Box fan in the window over the kettle
> > helped. Also required "outside air feed" from across the
> > room. (January in MN, T=0^F). BUT the most effective
> > *fix* was to adjust the burner! Gave it "Full Air"
> > (I suggest removing the air adjuster on the Superb.)
> > and back off on the NG just a bit. Get rid of the
> > orange flame tips and the odor, and the CO level will
> > drop to less than 20 ppm....
> >
> > Propane vs NG. Propane has more energy, and is at a
> > higher pressure. Therefore, the NG opening or orifice
> > needs to be about twice the diameter of the propane
> > orifice. If you have one, want the other, plug the
> > old one w/ a screw, and drill a new one of the
> > appropo size (twice or half the diameter).
> >
> > Propane is more dangerous. It's heavier than air, will sink,
> > will not mix as readily, and therefore is explosive over a
> > much wider range of "fuel-air" ratios. NG is lighter than
> > air, has less energy, burns cleaner and is cheaper.
> > If you can swing it, NG is the way to go....
> >
> > Good brewing,
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------ http://www.menet.umn.edu/~jellings/ *
> > * Dr. James Lee (Jim) Ellingson Ph.D. jellings(a)me.umn.edu *
> > * University of Minnesota, 125 Mech. Engr. tel 651/645-0753 *
> > * 1569 Laurel Ave., St. Paul, MN 55104 fax *
> >
> > ----- End of forwarded message from Jim Ellingson -----
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Your wife is buying you a BEER system? Does she have any sisters?
- Al
"Christopher
Hadden" To: "Jim L. Ellingson" <jellings(a)me.umn.edu>,
<chadden@contec mba(a)thebarn.com
rayon.com> cc:
Sent by: Subject: RE: LP vs Natural Gas
owner-mba@theba
rn.com
03/18/2002
11:21 AM
I'm totally with you on the points you bring up. These are some of the
reasons why I'm switching to NG. But the best reason is that my wife is
buying me a system from MoreBeer.com! ;-)
Thanks to everyone for the advice. I just wasn't sure if 27,000 BTUs would
do the trick. From what I've heard, it should work really well.
Thanks again,
Chris
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-mba(a)thebarn.com [mailto:owner-mba@thebarn.com]On Behalf Of
> Jim L. Ellingson
> Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 11:13 AM
> To: mba(a)thebarn.com
> Subject: LP vs Natural Gas
>
>
> Greetings,
>
> Just my 2 BTU's on this discussion.
>
> LP = More energy, danger, cost.
>
> NG = cleaner, safer, cheaper, fewer BTU's.
>
> NG is a much safer/better choice.
>
>
>
> There are significant differences between LP and NG.
>
> LP has more energy (aka more hydrogen) than NG.
>
> It's dispensed at a higher pressure.
>
> So a given burner on LP vs same burner on NG
> (same jet or orifice). LP = more heat (say 2X).
> Same burner, different orifice, LP=more heat (Say 1.4X).
>
>
> LP is heavier than NG, and air. LP will not mix.
> It will fow to the low point and pool there.
>
> NG is comparable to air, mixes with it, will dissipate.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:08:33 -0800
> From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb(a)stanford.edu>
> Subject: Propane to natural gas conversion
>
> I asked a few digests back about whether to believe the numbers I
> had read in the digest about jet orifice size for these two gasses.
> Here are the responses I've received, with their predicted answers:
>
> *************************
> If it was me, I'd buy a second jet and drill it until I got what looked
> to be an oversized hole. Then drill the first one just one size
> smaller.
>
> [I like this suggestion the best, even though it costs money--JB]
> *************************
> I would go by the ratio of sizes not the absolute - remember that the
> jet and burner go together and different burners will use different jet
> sizes. Only open up the jet to the same ratio. i.e.:
>
> .0625 what you started with (.04?)
> - ---------- = -----------------------------------------
> .11 what you should end up with
>
> [Should this be the ratio of their areas? In either case it's
> .062", assuming .035 starting diameter--JB]
>
> *************************
> To run a
> Methane (NG) burner with a #60 (.040) jet on Propane (LP) it would
> require a #72 (.025) jet. The approximate ratio is the Natural Gas jet
> is 1.6 times bigger than the Propane (LP jet*1.6 = NG jet or
> LP jet/1.6 = NG jet)
>
> [This works out to .056"--JB]
>
> *************************
> [From the guy's gas company, edited-JB]
> Our NG is regulated to 7" of water (~.25 PSI?). To get 100kbtu, use a
#22
> bit. But anything over 40 kbtu should have a separate regulator. Use a
> 3.5" regulator and a #15 bit to drill the orifice block.
>
> [According to the Grainger catalog, #22=.157", #15=.180" But I thought
> NG was .5 PSI, so maybe this guy's is low and so I should be using a
> smaller hole?--JB]
>
> Anyway, if you end up overdrilling the orifice, couldn't
> you just limit the gas via a valve between the house and the burner?
>
> *************************
> So, I've already gone to .078 and the flame keeps getting bigger. The
> suggestions I've received are .056, .062, .11 (archives), and .157.
> Sounds like the first approach wins, unless I hear something definitive
> soon.
>
> Thanks to:
> Richard Seyler, RooJahMon, Owen A. King, and Ray Kruse
> - --
> Jeremy Bergsman
> jeremybb(a)leland.stanford.edu
> http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb
>
> ------------------------------
> End of HOMEBREW Digest #2625, 02/01/98
> *************************************
> -------
>
>
>
> Shane,
>
> I've been using one for a couple of years, and
> really like it. I got the idea from John Isenhour.
> BTU rating is something like 35,000 BTU's.
> They do eat a lot of O2, but are much cleaner
> and much safer than propane IMNSHO.
>
> I dual heat my keg-tles. I have an electric water
> heater element installed, and I run it at 110 V or
> about 1100 watts. Works for me.
>
> I'll suggest something other than a ball valve for
> metering. It works ok, but is rather course.
> Keep in mind that NG pressure is about 6 inches of
> water of roughly .25 psi, so you can't have
> too much of a restriction in the line.
> (That is, a needle valve may be too restrictive.)
>
> Modern NG WH burners are designed to heat the inside
> of a cylinder, not the bottom of a kettle. I've acquired,
> but not tried, a couple of "antique" WH burners that
> have more jets and have the jets pointing straight up,
> (instead of out at/towards the inside of a cylinder.)
>
> Code requires that a burner of this size be vented.
> Your hood will probably work. The box fan in my
> kitchen window seems to work fine.
>
> Like most any other burner, you'll get maximum efficiency
> (only) at the max or rated o/p (probably 35 kBTU's.) You
> may need to adjust the air mix. I've got mine full open
> (proabably to account for the fact that it's not vented
> and so doesn't have a chimney *drawing* on it.)
>
> Post this to the digest if you like, but I WILL NOT
> ENGAGE IN ANY DEBATES ABOUT THE MERITS/SAFETY of different
> burners. My system is designed for occasional, SUPERVISED
> operation by an engineer. If you're not comfortable with
> any aspect of your burner set up, then you probably shouldn't
> be using it....
>
> More burner thoughts.
>
> CO: If it smells "dirty" it probably is. Had access to
> a CO detector. Took just 30 minutes to get the CO level
> up over 200 ppm (lethal) using a Superb 35k BTU burner and NG in
> a large house! Box fan in the window over the kettle
> helped. Also required "outside air feed" from across the
> room. (January in MN, T=0^F). BUT the most effective
> *fix* was to adjust the burner! Gave it "Full Air"
> (I suggest removing the air adjuster on the Superb.)
> and back off on the NG just a bit. Get rid of the
> orange flame tips and the odor, and the CO level will
> drop to less than 20 ppm....
>
> Propane vs NG. Propane has more energy, and is at a
> higher pressure. Therefore, the NG opening or orifice
> needs to be about twice the diameter of the propane
> orifice. If you have one, want the other, plug the
> old one w/ a screw, and drill a new one of the
> appropo size (twice or half the diameter).
>
> Propane is more dangerous. It's heavier than air, will sink,
> will not mix as readily, and therefore is explosive over a
> much wider range of "fuel-air" ratios. NG is lighter than
> air, has less energy, burns cleaner and is cheaper.
> If you can swing it, NG is the way to go....
>
> Good brewing,
> Jim
>
>
> ------------------------------ http://www.menet.umn.edu/~jellings/ *
> * Dr. James Lee (Jim) Ellingson Ph.D. jellings(a)me.umn.edu *
> * University of Minnesota, 125 Mech. Engr. tel 651/645-0753 *
> * 1569 Laurel Ave., St. Paul, MN 55104 fax *
>
> ----- End of forwarded message from Jim Ellingson -----
