On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 12:32:21PM -0600, Rick Oftel wrote:
Rick,
> Jim, Not trying to debate science but your response generated a question that I hope is easily answered about thermal conductivity. Possibly an experiment over a beer would be helpful.
>
> Trying to better understand the aluminum vs SS debate. Some folks use Rocket Engines to heat kettles. Others use electrical elements. A few of us rely on small gas burners that seem to outperform many of the higher BTU producers.
>
I agree with you here. Burners are sized by "Consumption" and
clearly not all "Burner BTU's" are created equal. The multi
jet models (e.g. Superb, 100 jets, etc.) have modest ratings (say 30-50k BTU's)
but somehow manage out-perform the "serrated disk in a cup" designs and
"single jet in a tube". The mulit jet burners are quiet, clean, efficient.
> According to your statistics, aluminum is 11.25 times more conductive than SS. Is it accurate to state that an aluminum stock pot would transfer 11 times more heat to the liquid that the SS version using the same external heating device? Would it be logical to conclude you would use 11 times less input heat with aluminum than SS to achieve the same degree of "rolling boil?"
>
Or put another way, SS has a resistance to heat flow that is 10 times
that of aluminum. The "Delta T" needed to drive the heat across the
stainless is considerably greater (10 times if the thickness is constant)
than the "Delta T" needed to drive the same heat across the aluminun kettle.
So the heat is carried from the bottom/burner side of the aluminum kettle
to the inside/wort-side of the kettle in a more efficient manner. The
inside of the aluminum kettle is at a more uniform temp, and the
outside/bottom of the aluminum kettle is at a lower temp.
> To validate this, would a "heat to boil race" be appropriate? Two gallons in aluminum, two gallons in SS. Original water temperature 60?F. Similar profile containers with identical burners (15 kbtu). Both burners started at the same time. If the aluminum boils in 5 minutes, then the SS boils in 56 minutes?
An interesting concept. Best to use DI water. (Just kidding)
> I have never had trouble with scorching but use a diffused flame source with about 100 single hole jets. I do notice more accumulations of beer stone, hard calcium deposits (white), and general brown crud directly over the iron supports. They must significantly help with heat transfer.
Heat transfer is driven by the temperature difference Delta T.
Heat Transfer Rates. Conduction > Convection > Radiation.
The direct contact of the kettle w/ the iron result in
hot spots in the kettle. Heat is going into the iron from the
flame (iron is a decent conductor at 50 w/cm-K.) and it takes
the "shorter path" for heat flow by conduction into the SS kettle.
The heat is coming into the SS at a faster rate (due to conduction)
than the SS is unable to distribute it.
> The false bottom for boiling is usually used only when you bitter with whole hops. The nice thing is it does not need to be in the boil for the complete cycle but performs very well with Irish moss. If it is not yet installed, you can scrape clean the bottom of the kettle and cut back even more on your input BTU's. If you leave a little space between perforated plate and edge, you get a great roll in your kettle and the perforations appear to hold the hot break quite solidly.
>
I find that whole/loose/fower hops work best w/ the "screen on a siphon"
that I use. Up to 50% pellets is tolerated by the screen. Advantage of
the siphon is you can always pull it out to clean it if needed.
> Must be experiment time. Stay tuned - don't touch that dial! I look forward to data about flame impingement and actual heat transfer!
What's all this about flaming on the mba? Can't we
just get along? <grin>
> Thanks Jim for kicking this off again!
Symposia can be fun. (third definition.)
sym�po�si�um ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sm-pz-m)
n. pl. sym�po�si�ums or sym�po�si�a (-z-)
A meeting or conference for discussion of a topic, especially one in which the participants form an audience and make presentations.
A collection of writings on a particular topic, as in a magazine.
A convivial meeting for drinking, music, and intellectual discussion among the ancient Greeks.
cheers,
Jim
> Rick O
>
> Rick Oftel
>
> >>> "Jim L. Ellingson" <jellings(a)me.umn.edu> 11/17/03 11:13AM >>>
> Greetings,
>
> I started out w/ Keg-kettles w/ heating elements and spigots.
> I direct fired the kegtle, in addition to the electircal heat.
> Never did a decoction in these elemented kettles, can't
> really stir w/ the element in place.
>
> The Polarware SS Kettles are much better than converted kegs.
>
> For a direct fired brew kettle, I find aluminum to
> be superior to stainless. Isssues as I see 'em.
>
> 1. Conductivity, hot spots, scorching:
>
> Materail Conductivity Cost
> (W/m-^C) (From Matweb)
>
> Copper 360 $1kb?
> Aluminum 180 $100
> 400 SS 27 $100
> 300/18-8 SS 16 $200
>
>
> I've never used copper, but in my experience, aluminum is
> a superior conductor compared to SS.
>
> Granted the Al needs to be a bit thicker, so the actual conductivity
> may be only 5 times the values for the Polarware pot. The chances
> of scorching are much lower w/ aluminum. Aluminum works much better for
> decoction mashing. A thicker, better conductor means fewer/no hot spots.
>
> 2. Cleaning. Commercially, aluminum is not a good option since
> the commercial cleaners (strong caustics) dissolve aluminum, but
> few compmercial operations are direct fired. Also, commercial
> brewing is a high risk occupation. (get the numbers from OSHA
> if you don't believe it.) Number one hazard is burns, from the
> strong caustics used in cleaning.
>
> My question is this. What sort of chemicals are you using
> on your home brew kettle? Why?
>
> My aluminum kettles take a bit of beer stone, and keep
> it until I over-do the acid/pH adjustment.
>
> 3. I'm not a fan of spigots in the brewkettle. Impossible to clean,
> and easily plugged. I like the siphon/duck/whatever.
>
> 4. I'm not a fan of false bottoms. Never worked that well
> in the mash tunn (Sabco), so I'm back to slotted pipes in a
> cooler. In the kettle, I've had trouble w/ scorcing under
> the false bottom (Sabco). Quite possibly, that issue is
> reduced or eliminated w/ a "real" kettle. (e.g. Polarware).
>
> 5. Flavor: Not an issue. See Jeff Donahue's article on same.
>
> My keg kettls are wired for heat (1100 watts at 110v) and have
> spigots. I've retired them "upstairs) to HLT use, and they
> work fine for that. A spigot on the HLT is very convenient.
>
> I'm as big a fan of stainless as the next guy, but it's
> not a very good conductor.
>
> Cheers,
> Jim
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------ *
> * Dr. James Lee Ellingson, Adjunct Professor jellings(a)me.umn.edu *
> * University of Minnesota, tel: 651/645-0753 fax 651 XXX XXXX *
> * Great Lakes Brewing News, 1569 Laurel Ave., St. Paul, MN 55104 *
>
--
------------------------------ *
* Dr. James Lee Ellingson, Adjunct Professor jellings(a)me.umn.edu *
* University of Minnesota, tel: 651/645-0753 fax 651 XXX XXXX *
* Great Lakes Brewing News, 1569 Laurel Ave., St. Paul, MN 55104 *
Hey All-
You drank all of the Anniversary Ale & the 6 Pale Ale supply has also nearly run dry...So we get to release more beer!
Chubby Monk will be released this Thursday (11/20). This is a Belgian style Dubbel that features all the complexity you expect. It has been aging for some time and has matured very nicely..great right? This also means this beast (7.3%ABV) is very smooth, so be careful! Please come to the Minneapolis Town Hall Brewery (1430 Washington Ave South) this Thursay and enjoy a glass for just $1. Yes, we will have growlers of the Chubby Monk.
*P.S. We will again feature brunch this coming Sunday, before the Vikings Game 9am-12pm.....Yum Yum
**P.S.S We will have the Oatmeal Stout in growlers starting Thursday
Cheers
Mike
The Minnesota Home Brewers Association will again be offering the Beer Judge
Certification Program classes this coming winter. If you are interested in
taking the course please send me an e-mail at cristj(a)bsci.com
<cristj(a)bsci.com> .
The class consists of 14 consecutive Thursdays, from 6-10pm starting January
8th. The BJCP exam is scheduled for Saturday April 17th. Each week we
discuss and learn about a specific technical brewing topic, as well as taste
and discuss specific beer styles, both commercial "classic" examples of the
style as well as homebrewed examples. Each week we will be judging at least
one beer, complete with scoresheets, to improve our judging and feedback
abilities. The proposed schedule is below. Locations for the classes will
rotate around the Twin Cities, hosted by several of the club members.
The winter class will run much the same as the fall classes:
1) class size will be limited to 12 to ensure we can fit in all the
host houses and for better class interaction
2) the cost for the class will be $50 for first timers and $30 for
people who have taken the BJCP exam before. The cost is to be paid by the
3rd class and is non-refundable. PLEASE UNDERSTAND what this money covers
and why we ask you to pay in advance:
a) this is the exam fee for the April BJCP exam - you won't have to
pay it again later.
b) if you pay your fee in advance (non-refundable)
you will be more committed to studying and taking the exam.
3) Drop-ins are welcome (as long as we have space available) - if
possible, please let me or the host know you will be coming. Please bring a
6-pack of the weekly style to share with the class. Homebrew is highly
encouraged.
The course schedule is organized much the same as the fall session, with the
technical topics somewhat in the order of a brew session and the styles,
where possible, from lighter to darker. Two of the early styles,
fruit/vege/spiced beers and ciders, are placed early because they are not on
the exam. Meads are also not on the exam but were scheduled to coincide with
an upcoming club only competition. The second Doctored Beer session will be
different from the first session in that the flavors will be at the
threshold level and the focus will be on how/what do you tell the brewer to
fix.
Each class will be broken down into 3 (or 4) parts:
30 mins: Judge a beer, score it, then discuss it.
45-60 mins: Technical Topic
15-30 mins: Quizzes - not every week, but be prepared!
60+ mins: Beer Styles - sample and discuss the weekly style of beer
This fall about 8 people are taking the class and scheduled to take the exam
in December. I'm sure everyone in the class would agree that not only did
they learn about beer judging, but they also became better brewers.
We always have a lot of fun! If you want to learn about beer and brewing -
come join us!
Jonathan
2004 MINNESOTA HOME BREWERS ASSOCIATION
BEER JUDGE CERTIFICATION PROGRAM CLASSES (Proposed Schedule)
WK DATE TOPIC
STYLE
1. 8 Jan Doctored Beer Seminar
Technical Topic: Flavors and Aromas
Researcher: Jonathan Crist
2 15 Jan Light Ale, Fruit, Spice, Herb, Vege Ale
3, 21, 22, 24
Technical Topic: Sanitation
3 22 Jan Cider
26
Technical Topic: Water
4 29 Jan Light Lagers
1, 2
Technical Topic: Malt - from the husk to the brewer
5 5 Feb Amber and Dark Lagers 9,
13, 14
Technical Topic: Mashing - from the brewer to beer
6 12 Feb Bitters and Pale Ales
4, 6, 7
Technical Topic: Hops
7 19 Feb Brown, Scottish, Strong Scotch Ale
5, 10, 11b
Technical Topic: Yeast
8 26 Feb German Ale, Wheat Beer, Rauch bier
8, 17, 23
Technical Topic: Adjuncts and Packaging
9 4 Mar Other Belgian Ales
19a-b, 20
Technical Topic: Troubleshooting
10 11 Mar Strong Belgian and French Ales 18,
19c-e
Technical Topic: Brewing Procedures - boil onward
11 18 Mar Meads
25
Technical Topic: Recipe Formulation
Club Only: Mead, due in April
12 25 Mar Stout and Porters
12c, 15, 16
Technical Topic: BJCP Knowledge
13 1 Apr Barleywines and Old Ales
11a, 12a-b
Technical Topic: Doctored Beer II
14 8 Apr or Study Session: Q & A
15 Apr
15 17 Apr BJCP EXAM !!!
Greetings,
I started out w/ Keg-kettles w/ heating elements and spigots.
I direct fired the kegtle, in addition to the electircal heat.
Never did a decoction in these elemented kettles, can't
really stir w/ the element in place.
The Polarware SS Kettles are much better than converted kegs.
For a direct fired brew kettle, I find aluminum to
be superior to stainless. Isssues as I see 'em.
1. Conductivity, hot spots, scorching:
Materail Conductivity Cost
(W/m-^C) (From Matweb)
Copper 360 $1kb?
Aluminum 180 $100
400 SS 27 $100
300/18-8 SS 16 $200
I've never used copper, but in my experience, aluminum is
a superior conductor compared to SS.
Granted the Al needs to be a bit thicker, so the actual conductivity
may be only 5 times the values for the Polarware pot. The chances
of scorching are much lower w/ aluminum. Aluminum works much better for
decoction mashing. A thicker, better conductor means fewer/no hot spots.
2. Cleaning. Commercially, aluminum is not a good option since
the commercial cleaners (strong caustics) dissolve aluminum, but
few compmercial operations are direct fired. Also, commercial
brewing is a high risk occupation. (get the numbers from OSHA
if you don't believe it.) Number one hazard is burns, from the
strong caustics used in cleaning.
My question is this. What sort of chemicals are you using
on your home brew kettle? Why?
My aluminum kettles take a bit of beer stone, and keep
it until I over-do the acid/pH adjustment.
3. I'm not a fan of spigots in the brewkettle. Impossible to clean,
and easily plugged. I like the siphon/duck/whatever.
4. I'm not a fan of false bottoms. Never worked that well
in the mash tunn (Sabco), so I'm back to slotted pipes in a
cooler. In the kettle, I've had trouble w/ scorcing under
the false bottom (Sabco). Quite possibly, that issue is
reduced or eliminated w/ a "real" kettle. (e.g. Polarware).
5. Flavor: Not an issue. See Jeff Donahue's article on same.
My keg kettls are wired for heat (1100 watts at 110v) and have
spigots. I've retired them "upstairs) to HLT use, and they
work fine for that. A spigot on the HLT is very convenient.
I'm as big a fan of stainless as the next guy, but it's
not a very good conductor.
Cheers,
Jim
--
------------------------------ *
* Dr. James Lee Ellingson, Adjunct Professor jellings(a)me.umn.edu *
* University of Minnesota, tel: 651/645-0753 fax 651 XXX XXXX *
* Great Lakes Brewing News, 1569 Laurel Ave., St. Paul, MN 55104 *
As a followup to my own email :-(
If you can afford it go for a false bottom in your kettle. It is
fantastic at keeping the hot break and whole hops from plugging the
drain or the chiller. My setup uses gravity to drain the boiler
through the counterflow chiller and with whole hops and Whirlfloc I get
very little hot break in the fermenters. Since I leave the false
bottom in for the whole boil I don't have to worry about plastic wrap
plugging the plumbing :-)
Steve Piatz writes:
>
> I agree with Steve on the stainless and the inconvienence of converted
> kegs. I have a keg that is used as a turkey deep fryer these days and
> 15 gallon stainless kettles for brewing. The drain valves are
> extremely valuable. The weldless fittings are a cheap option though
> you will need a hole saw or punch to prepare the kettle.
>
> Remember that with the aluminum kettles the heat transfer is very good
> (a real plus) but some agressive cleaners are not a good idea (lye or
> oven-clean after a boilover or scorching is a nono).
>
> As for converted kegs try SABCO at http://www.kegs.com/
> Note they also have a lot of other things like 2.5 gallon cornies.
>
--
Steve Piatz piatz(a)cray.com
Cray Inc. 651-605-9049
1340 Mendota Heights Road
Mendota Heights, MN 55120
I have been looking at brewing kettles, and I could use some advice.
I am looking for something around 15 gallons, so that I can do all grain
batches of at least 10 gallons. Northern Brewer has a Polarware 15 Gallon
Kettle made of 18-8 stainless that would work. Midwest has a 14 gallon
stainless kettle with .8mm sides and 1.0mm bottom which is quite a bit
cheaper, but I would question the durability of this compared with the
heavier kettle. I know that a lot of people have converted used kegs for
use as brew kettles, but I have not found a good source for that option, and
I am not sure how much modifying I want to try to do.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Dave
I agree with Steve on the stainless and the inconvienence of converted
kegs. I have a keg that is used as a turkey deep fryer these days and
15 gallon stainless kettles for brewing. The drain valves are
extremely valuable. The weldless fittings are a cheap option though
you will need a hole saw or punch to prepare the kettle.
Remember that with the aluminum kettles the heat transfer is very good
(a real plus) but some agressive cleaners are not a good idea (lye or
oven-clean after a boilover or scorching is a nono).
As for converted kegs try SABCO at http://www.kegs.com/
Note they also have a lot of other things like 2.5 gallon cornies.
Steve Fletty writes:
>
> I prefer stainless steel kettles. They're light, durable and easy to clean.
>
> I had a modified keg at one point, which I quickly sold. Those are just too
> heavy and more difficult to clean compared to a kettle.
>
> Stainless is of course more expensive, but will hold it's value.
>
> If you can, just get brew kettles with the spigot already in them and save
> yourself the time and effort of messing around with modifying something, unless
> you like doing that.
>
> A good option for modification is the Zymico weldless fittings, at both
> Midwest and Northern Brewer.
>
>
> > I have been looking at brewing kettles, and I could use some advice.
> >
> > I am looking for something around 15 gallons, so that I can do all grain
> > batches of at least 10 gallons. Northern Brewer has a Polarware 15 Gallon
> > Kettle made of 18-8 stainless that would work. Midwest has a 14 gallon
> > stainless kettle with .8mm sides and 1.0mm bottom which is quite a bit
> > cheaper, but I would question the durability of this compared with the
> > heavier kettle. I know that a lot of people have converted used kegs for
> > use as brew kettles, but I have not found a good source for that option, and
> > I am not sure how much modifying I want to try to do.
> >
> > Any advice would be appreciated.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
Steve Piatz piatz(a)cray.com
Cray Inc. 651-605-9049
1340 Mendota Heights Road
Mendota Heights, MN 55120
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
*
WHAT`S NEW
TOAST TO JIMMY: "On October 14, 1978, President Carter signed House
Resolution 1337. Senate Amendment 3534 to that resolution called for
equal treatment of home beer brewers and home winemakers. This law
allowed that brewing up to 100 gallons per adult or up to 200 gallons
per household per year was permitted for home use. The amendment was
proposed by Senator Cranston of California, Senator Schmitt of New
Mexico, Senator Bumpers of Arkansas and Senator Gravel of Alaska."
Read more at: www.beertown.org/homebrewing/
-------------------------
NEWSLETTER: Posted the latest Boiler (the MHBA newsletter) (PDF
format)
-------------------------
National Mead Day: National Mead Day was celebrated with vim and
vigor in St. Paul, MN this past Saturday as some 23 people gathered
to sample 37 meads. Commercial meads included the likes of Xtabentum
(Licor de Anis y Miel de Abejas), Brother Adam\'s Bragget Ale,
Lindisfarne and Moniack (Dark) - to name just a few. The most
striking aspect was the quality of the home made meads. Thanks to
everyone who participated and a special thanks to those who brought
libations and food. Equally aMAZEing is that five mead makers made
six batches of mead: two batches of the official mead day recipe,
cherry melomel, and batches of cranberry blossom, raspberry ginger,
wildflower, and mint blossom. In all, 32 gallons of mead were made.
Mead making technique ran the gamut from pasteurization to the use of
sulfites to no sanitation of ingredients. Some 1.6 trillion yeasts
"pitched in" to make it happen. Check out the pictures[1]!!!
UPCOMING EVENTS
BJCP Class #12 -
Beer: Stouts and Porters
Tech.Topic: Recipe Formulation
Contact Kris England at engla008(a)tc.umn.edu for more information
Tue, Nov 18[2] @ 18:00
-------------------------
BJCP Class #13 -
Beer: Barleywines and Old Ales
Tech.Topic: BJCP Knowledge
Contact Kris England at engla008(a)tc.umn.edu for more information
AHA CLUB ONLY JUDGING
Barleywines
Tue, Nov 25[3] @ 18:00
-------------------------
BJCP Class #3 -
STUDY SESSION: Q & A
Contact Kris England at engla008(a)tc.umn.edu for more information
Tue, Dec 02[4] @ 18:00
-------------------------
BJCP TEST
Contact Kris England at engla008(a)tc.umn.edu for more information
Sat, Dec 06 @ 09:00
-------------------------
MHBA HOLIDAY POT LUCK / CHRISTMAS PARTY AT CSPS HALL. ANOTHER FUN
FEATURE OF THIS EVENT THAT WILL RE-APPEAR IS THE BEER SWAP. BRING UP
TO 1 CASE (24 BOTTLES) OF YOUR HOMEBREW, AND GO HOME WITH AN EQUAL
NUMBER OF BOTTLES FROM SOMEONE ELSE!
Fri, Dec 12 @ 17:00
-------------------------
MHBA MEETING AT SUMMIT BREWING, 910 MONTREAL CIRCLE, ST. PAUL
Sat, Jan 10[5] @ 15:30
-------------------------
Links:
------
[1]
/events/mead-day-2003/
[2]
http://mnbrewers.com/day.view.php?currYear=2003&currMonth=11&currDay=18
[3]
http://mnbrewers.com/day.view.php?currYear=2003&currMonth=11&currDay=25
[4]
http://mnbrewers.com/day.view.php?currYear=2003&currMonth=12&currDay=02
[5]
http://mnbrewers.com/day.view.php?currYear=2003&currMonth=12&currDay=06
Due to a very busy schedule the West Side Meeting for
November will not happening. I know this is going to
change peoples' plans, and I sincerely apologize :>
Cheers
WH
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Here are some tasty ways to keep warm on a crisp fall day...
Dave
----------
From: brewery(a)brewhouse.net
Date: 13 Nov 2003 22:52:32 -0000
To: north-shore-brewer(a)earthlink.net
Subject: new beers
Greetings Beer Lovers,
Now that the Pumpkin Ale has vanished for another year, thought I'd fill you
in on the newest beers.
Padawan Pale Ale 5.9% is an amber pale ale in the early winter celebration
style.
Sasquatch Scotch Ale 8.0% is a scotch wee-heavy ale. Slightly sweetish,
very malty and completely tasty.
Apricot Wheat 5.1% our old favorite, apricots and tangy wheat.
Vanilla Cream Stout 4.9%, a very full-bodied dessert type beer. Rich and
delicious.
Hair O' The Monk 10.1% a belgian triple. Very light in color, but deep in
flavor and high in the warming of the belly factor.
Please log on to our website www.brewhouse.net for the latest news and
brews.
Have a nice weekend and thanks for your support.
The brewhouse gang
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