I missed most of a recent thread about running glassware through
dishwashers and subsequent etching/streaking.
We ruined a decent set of glassware over the years; we ran the pieces
through our dishwasher and all of them ended up etched pretty badly. I
found an article in a rather unscientific place (Mr. Fixit maybe?) that
seemed to make sense to this rather un-chemically-inclined dude.
Most dishwasher soaps have some amount of phosphates in them -- used
primarily to soften the water. However, if you already use softened
water (like we do for all of our hot water), then the phosphates in the
soap will cause the etching. The article didn't go into specifics as to
how/why.
Soooo, we purchased a new set of glassware and changed dishwashing soap
to a phosphate-free brand -- Seventh Generation -- and behold! No
etching.
Do the chemically-inclined dudes in the MhBA world have ideas about
this?
R
--
Russ Loucks
mailto: rjl(a)mm.com
office: (952) 842-5358
mobile: (612) 387-4108
> Matthias,
> I went to Brooklyn yesterday. I talked to brewmaster - he
> said that Schneider Weiss will be on TV on tomorrow
> morning on CBS Saturday Early Show - Beer 101. I'm not
> sure what time it will be, but please check it out!
> Miho
About time for some controversy. I would have to side with Dave on
this one. Use the malt that provides the best results while
considering the COGS (cost of goods sold) or in our case (COGP) cost of
goods produced. Sure we can justify usage of higher price base malts
and in the end, it only costs us a few dollars here and there. Ramp the
costs up to a production brewery and the choice of raw materials has a
significant effect on profit, maintenance budgets, equipment purchases,
direct labor etc. English malts are nice as are malts produced in
Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Canada, and American. They all taste
slightly different due to different grain varieties, growing conditions,
soil chemistry, and malting techniques. Mashing, sparging, and brewing
techniques also affect final malt flavor. Sometimes that heavy malt
taste is too much of a good thing.
The good thing is from our perspective, we have the opportunity to
experiment with different malts and if we really hate the results, the
drain is an option. My personal brewery uses a little German malt for
most lagers and Kolsch. If I find a good deal on English malt, I use it
for an IPA or special bitter. The remainder of the pale ales seem to
work out fairly well with domestic two row and a combination of domestic
and imported specialty malts.
A funny thought just came to mind. Ever see a BJCP judge complain that
a beer was too malty?
Now go have a cool beer and start your week end early.
Rick
>>> Will Holway <brew987(a)yahoo.com> 10/17/02 04:17PM >>>
My only comparison was with Briess 2 row. I have found
all of the imported Pale Ale malts to give a much
fuller flavor than Briess at least. I still think
English Pale Ale malts (Hugh Barid and Maris
Otter)give the beer a certain warmth and fullness that
Briess could not do. However, I haven't tried
Minnesota Malt, but since I have had good luck with
English malts, I haven't wanted to mess the equation
...
--- David H Berg <bergbrew(a)juno.com> wrote:
>
> Higher quality is a fairly nebulous term. Lower
> protein, color,
> moisture, Kolbach index??? Better flavor? Hey, I
> used Maris Otter for 4
> years. I wouldn't have switched to Minnesota
> Malting if I didn't think
> the beer was better.
>
> That holds for base malts. Specialty malts, on the
> other hand, are a
> different matter.
>
>
> On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Will Holway
> <brew987(a)yahoo.com>
> writes:
> >
> > Iy just so happens that malt from those places
> tends
> > to be of a higher quality than that which is
> > domestically produced (in my opinion) ...
> >
> > --- David H Berg <bergbrew(a)juno.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok, I'll sock you! While I agree with the
> overall
> > > statement about using
> > > the best, cost and quality are not necessarily
> > > related. Shipping
> > > ingredients from England, Germany, etc is
> obviously
> > > going to raise the
> > > cost. So because you are paying for the extra
> > > freight costs, the product
> > > is better? Damn engineers! You don't work for
> the
> > > US government, do
> > > you? ;^)
> > >
> > > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:34:39 -0500 "Rick Larson"
> > > <rick(a)mnbrewers.com>
> > > writes:
> > > >
> > > > Al asks:
> > > > > What's your favorite "trick" ingredients?
> > > > >
> > > > > ie...
> > > > > Carapils malt... for Body
> > > > > Wheat malt... for Head
> > > > >
> > > > > - Al
> > > >
> > > > Some might say cardamon in Saisons but I
> wouldn't
> > > have this
> > > > spice in the same room as the brewery let
> alone
> > > use it.
> > > >
> > > > Cumin in wits and Saisons might be found in
> some
> > > homebrewed
> > > > examples.
> > > >
> > > > I've heard vanilla in English pale ales.
> > > >
> > > > I could be just making this up...
> > > >
> > > > rick
> > > > ps. There is no reason not to use the best
> base
> > > malts,
> > > > hops and yeasts in a homebrew. Spend the
> extra
> > > $$. The
> > > > cheap stuff is for the professional brewer
> (I'm
> > > going to
> > > > get socked for saying this ;-).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > David Berg
> > > President, Minnesota Craft Brewer's Guild
> > > Head Brewer, Water Tower Brewing Company
> > > http://www.mncraftbrew.org
> > >
> > >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________
> > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> > > less!
> > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> > http://faith.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> David Berg
> President, Minnesota Craft Brewer's Guild
> Head Brewer, Water Tower Brewing Company
> http://www.mncraftbrew.org
>
>
________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com
Just an FYI for everybody ...
Barley John's is releasing a special beer [11% Bourbon Ale] for
Halloween...
I believe it's to be released on Thursday the 31st...
Ryan
--
----------------------------------------------
Ryan Sinn
Wizard Technologies
Web and Networking Solutions
----------------------------------------------
office : 763.783.5721
e-mail : ryan(a)wizardtechnologies.net
url : http://wizardtechnologies.net/
----------------------------------------------
"Ipsa scientia potestas est." - Francis Bacon
----------------------------------------------
Well, actually I'm saying high cost does not equal better. Even on my
scale I wouldn't buy a malt just because it was cheaper. Hugh Baird Pale
is Maris Otter, by the way, and I've had some really great beers made
with Briess malt (and I bet if you looked at GABF medals, a lot of
brewer's won using Briess as a base).
It's beer, folks, not wine. That is the beauty of being a brewer. If
you look at a malt spec sheet and see something that isn't quite ideal,
you can adjust your process. Bad grapes will never yield great wine,
because there just isn't much you can do.
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:45:33 -0500 "Rick Oftel" <Rick.Oftel(a)toro.com>
writes:
> About time for some controversy. I would have to side with Dave on
> this one. Use the malt that provides the best results while
> considering the COGS (cost of goods sold) or in our case (COGP) cost
> of
> goods produced. Sure we can justify usage of higher price base
> malts
> and in the end, it only costs us a few dollars here and there. Ramp
> the
> costs up to a production brewery and the choice of raw materials has
> a
> significant effect on profit, maintenance budgets, equipment
> purchases,
> direct labor etc. English malts are nice as are malts produced in
> Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Canada, and American. They all taste
> slightly different due to different grain varieties, growing
> conditions,
> soil chemistry, and malting techniques. Mashing, sparging, and
> brewing
> techniques also affect final malt flavor. Sometimes that heavy malt
> taste is too much of a good thing.
>
> The good thing is from our perspective, we have the opportunity to
> experiment with different malts and if we really hate the results,
> the
> drain is an option. My personal brewery uses a little German malt
> for
> most lagers and Kolsch. If I find a good deal on English malt, I
> use it
> for an IPA or special bitter. The remainder of the pale ales seem
> to
> work out fairly well with domestic two row and a combination of
> domestic
> and imported specialty malts.
>
> A funny thought just came to mind. Ever see a BJCP judge complain
> that
> a beer was too malty?
>
> Now go have a cool beer and start your week end early.
>
> Rick
>
>
> >>> Will Holway <brew987(a)yahoo.com> 10/17/02 04:17PM >>>
>
> My only comparison was with Briess 2 row. I have found
> all of the imported Pale Ale malts to give a much
> fuller flavor than Briess at least. I still think
> English Pale Ale malts (Hugh Barid and Maris
> Otter)give the beer a certain warmth and fullness that
> Briess could not do. However, I haven't tried
> Minnesota Malt, but since I have had good luck with
> English malts, I haven't wanted to mess the equation
> ...
>
>
> --- David H Berg <bergbrew(a)juno.com> wrote:
> >
> > Higher quality is a fairly nebulous term. Lower
> > protein, color,
> > moisture, Kolbach index??? Better flavor? Hey, I
> > used Maris Otter for 4
> > years. I wouldn't have switched to Minnesota
> > Malting if I didn't think
> > the beer was better.
> >
> > That holds for base malts. Specialty malts, on the
> > other hand, are a
> > different matter.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Will Holway
> > <brew987(a)yahoo.com>
> > writes:
> > >
> > > Iy just so happens that malt from those places
> > tends
> > > to be of a higher quality than that which is
> > > domestically produced (in my opinion) ...
> > >
> > > --- David H Berg <bergbrew(a)juno.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I'll sock you! While I agree with the
> > overall
> > > > statement about using
> > > > the best, cost and quality are not necessarily
> > > > related. Shipping
> > > > ingredients from England, Germany, etc is
> > obviously
> > > > going to raise the
> > > > cost. So because you are paying for the extra
> > > > freight costs, the product
> > > > is better? Damn engineers! You don't work for
> > the
> > > > US government, do
> > > > you? ;^)
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:34:39 -0500 "Rick Larson"
> > > > <rick(a)mnbrewers.com>
> > > > writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > Al asks:
> > > > > > What's your favorite "trick" ingredients?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ie...
> > > > > > Carapils malt... for Body
> > > > > > Wheat malt... for Head
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Al
> > > > >
> > > > > Some might say cardamon in Saisons but I
> > wouldn't
> > > > have this
> > > > > spice in the same room as the brewery let
> > alone
> > > > use it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cumin in wits and Saisons might be found in
> > some
> > > > homebrewed
> > > > > examples.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've heard vanilla in English pale ales.
> > > > >
> > > > > I could be just making this up...
> > > > >
> > > > > rick
> > > > > ps. There is no reason not to use the best
> > base
> > > > malts,
> > > > > hops and yeasts in a homebrew. Spend the
> > extra
> > > > $$. The
> > > > > cheap stuff is for the professional brewer
> > (I'm
> > > > going to
> > > > > get socked for saying this ;-).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > David Berg
> > > > President, Minnesota Craft Brewer's Guild
> > > > Head Brewer, Water Tower Brewing Company
> > > > http://www.mncraftbrew.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> ________________________________________________________________
> > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> > > > less!
> > > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> > > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> > > http://faith.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > David Berg
> > President, Minnesota Craft Brewer's Guild
> > Head Brewer, Water Tower Brewing Company
> > http://www.mncraftbrew.org
> >
> >
> ________________________________________________________________
> > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> > less!
> > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> http://faith.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
David Berg
President, Minnesota Craft Brewer's Guild
Head Brewer, Water Tower Brewing Company
http://www.mncraftbrew.org
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Higher quality is a fairly nebulous term. Lower protein, color,
moisture, Kolbach index??? Better flavor? Hey, I used Maris Otter for 4
years. I wouldn't have switched to Minnesota Malting if I didn't think
the beer was better.
That holds for base malts. Specialty malts, on the other hand, are a
different matter.
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Will Holway <brew987(a)yahoo.com>
writes:
>
> Iy just so happens that malt from those places tends
> to be of a higher quality than that which is
> domestically produced (in my opinion) ...
>
> --- David H Berg <bergbrew(a)juno.com> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I'll sock you! While I agree with the overall
> > statement about using
> > the best, cost and quality are not necessarily
> > related. Shipping
> > ingredients from England, Germany, etc is obviously
> > going to raise the
> > cost. So because you are paying for the extra
> > freight costs, the product
> > is better? Damn engineers! You don't work for the
> > US government, do
> > you? ;^)
> >
> > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:34:39 -0500 "Rick Larson"
> > <rick(a)mnbrewers.com>
> > writes:
> > >
> > > Al asks:
> > > > What's your favorite "trick" ingredients?
> > > >
> > > > ie...
> > > > Carapils malt... for Body
> > > > Wheat malt... for Head
> > > >
> > > > - Al
> > >
> > > Some might say cardamon in Saisons but I wouldn't
> > have this
> > > spice in the same room as the brewery let alone
> > use it.
> > >
> > > Cumin in wits and Saisons might be found in some
> > homebrewed
> > > examples.
> > >
> > > I've heard vanilla in English pale ales.
> > >
> > > I could be just making this up...
> > >
> > > rick
> > > ps. There is no reason not to use the best base
> > malts,
> > > hops and yeasts in a homebrew. Spend the extra
> > $$. The
> > > cheap stuff is for the professional brewer (I'm
> > going to
> > > get socked for saying this ;-).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > David Berg
> > President, Minnesota Craft Brewer's Guild
> > Head Brewer, Water Tower Brewing Company
> > http://www.mncraftbrew.org
> >
> >
> ________________________________________________________________
> > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for
> > less!
> > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
> http://faith.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
David Berg
President, Minnesota Craft Brewer's Guild
Head Brewer, Water Tower Brewing Company
http://www.mncraftbrew.org
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Ok, I'll sock you! While I agree with the overall statement about using
the best, cost and quality are not necessarily related. Shipping
ingredients from England, Germany, etc is obviously going to raise the
cost. So because you are paying for the extra freight costs, the product
is better? Damn engineers! You don't work for the US government, do
you? ;^)
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:34:39 -0500 "Rick Larson" <rick(a)mnbrewers.com>
writes:
>
> Al asks:
> > What's your favorite "trick" ingredients?
> >
> > ie...
> > Carapils malt... for Body
> > Wheat malt... for Head
> >
> > - Al
>
> Some might say cardamon in Saisons but I wouldn't have this
> spice in the same room as the brewery let alone use it.
>
> Cumin in wits and Saisons might be found in some homebrewed
> examples.
>
> I've heard vanilla in English pale ales.
>
> I could be just making this up...
>
> rick
> ps. There is no reason not to use the best base malts,
> hops and yeasts in a homebrew. Spend the extra $$. The
> cheap stuff is for the professional brewer (I'm going to
> get socked for saying this ;-).
>
>
>
>
David Berg
President, Minnesota Craft Brewer's Guild
Head Brewer, Water Tower Brewing Company
http://www.mncraftbrew.org
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Rick-
OK, Rausch for smoke I understand. But what "character" does Special B
provide, and how much do you recommend, say, for 5 gallons?
Thanks!
- Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Oftel" <Rick.Oftel(a)toro.com>
To: <mba(a)thebarn.com>; <allan.boyce(a)usbank.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: "Trick" Ingredients
> Rausch and "B" The trick is to use the right amounts for flavor and
> character.
>
> >>> <allan.boyce(a)usbank.com> 10/16/02 05:36PM >>>
>
> What's your favorite "trick" ingredients?
>
> ie...
> Carapils malt... for Body
> Wheat malt... for Head
>
> - Al
>
>
>
Rick-
Great tips! Thanks - I'll give it a shot.
So far, the list is:
Carapils - Body
Wheat - Head retention
Rausch - "familiar", defining character
Special B - Body, Color, Lace, Malt accentuation
Anybody got any other "trick" ingredients?
- Al
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Oftel
To: alboyce(a)bigfoot.com
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: "Trick" Ingredients
Al, That's why they are called trick ingredients!!!
Don't have any good recommendations but I like to stretch the rausch very thin so you almost can't notice it maybe 0.5-2%. The "B" gets a little heavier dose maybe 2-3% unless you are making a red or dark. Then I boost the B to about 4% (never over 8%!).
The beech adds an interesting "familiar" flavor that seems to help define the malt, hops, yeast and water character. Possibly it acts like that Chinese MSG but I am not a food chemist. I like the term "help define" because you usually don't want to notice it but would like it to be present in the background. Try a small addition sometime.
The "B" is a body builder, color booster, malt accented, and lace creator but it only helps promote those characters. Used as the only specialty grain, it quickly becomes overpowering.
I would suggest a interesting experiment. Make a small batch and use 80% Pills, 10%B and 10% Rauch. You will quickly understand the character these grains add.
>>> aboyce(a)mn.rr.com 10/17/02 08:35AM >>>
Rick-
OK, Rausch for smoke I understand. But what "character" does Special B
provide, and how much do you recommend, say, for 5 gallons?
Thanks!
- Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Oftel" <Rick.Oftel(a)toro.com>
To: <mba(a)thebarn.com>; <allan.boyce(a)usbank.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: "Trick" Ingredients
> Rausch and "B" The trick is to use the right amounts for flavor and
> character.
>
> >>> <allan.boyce(a)usbank.com> 10/16/02 05:36PM >>>
>
> What's your favorite "trick" ingredients?
>
> ie...
> Carapils malt... for Body
> Wheat malt... for Head
>
> - Al
>
>
>
Al,
I've had this happen with B-brite as well when I inadvertently let my softener
"run dry". It's even harder to remove from plastic. I would try a soak in
something acidic like a Star San solution or regular dish detergent in water and
enough vinegar to get the pH down to around 3.
Steve Piatz <piatz(a)cray.com> on 10/17/2002 07:17:25 AM
To: ryan(a)wizardtechnologies.net (Ryan Sinn)
cc: alboyce(a)bigfoot.com (Al Boyce), mba(a)thebarn.com (bcc: Jason
Nelson/MN/Unitedmail)
Subject: Re: Ammonia Scum
I have seen the scum which appears to be the high chalk content of the
water when using bleach and/or TSP to soak bottle. I found it didn't
happen if I used water that had been through the water softner. In my
house several of the cold water taps bypass the softner, all the hot
water comes through the softner.
Ryan Sinn writes:
>
>
> I've experienced a white, chalky film or scum after bleaching bottles
> and letting them dry instead of pressure rinsing them after the bleach.
>
>
> Ryan
>
> That's all I have to add on the subject.
>
> On Wed, 2002-10-16 at 23:19, Al Boyce wrote:
> >
> > I have used ammonia to remove labels from bottles. I have noticed that the
> > some of the bottles that I have acquired this way have a white haze on them,
> > inside and out. Has anyone else encountered this, or what causes it? Has
> > anyone been successful at removing it?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > - Al
> >
> >
> --
> ----------------------------------------------
> Ryan Sinn
> Wizard Technologies
> Web and Networking Solutions
> ----------------------------------------------
> office : 763.783.5721
> e-mail : ryan(a)wizardtechnologies.net
> url : http://wizardtechnologies.net/
> ----------------------------------------------
> "Ipsa scientia potestas est." - Francis Bacon
> ----------------------------------------------
>
>
>
--
Steve Piatz piatz(a)cray.com
Cray Inc. 651-605-9049
1340 Mendota Heights Road
Mendota Heights, MN 55120
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