mba November 2001

mba@thebarn.com

32 participants
50 discussions

by David H Berg

Your need to use Nitric acid to pacify stainless--phosphoric won't cut it. On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:30:30 -0800 (PST) Will Holway <brew987(a)yahoo.com> writes: > Hi, > > I think I saw some postings on this subject before. It > has recently come to my attention that my method for > cleaning up my 1/2 barrell kegs (using the 3M green > scrubby pads) actually takes off some of the SS > protective coating. I am curious if I can re-passify > teh SS by using phosphoric acid. Does anyone know the > "recipe" for doing this? I have not noticed any off > flavors, or oxidation as of yet, but was curious of > others' opinions of this etc., and if it is a > reasonable course of action to pursue ... > > Thanks, > WH > WindRiver Brewing > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just > $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

24 years

Re: Re-Passifying Stainless Steel

by David H Berg

I've never used citric acid, but for nitric you wash it with the nitric and let it air dry (ie, do not rinse). By the way, the reason you need to passivate stainless is so it remains stainless--without the protective coat it will stain and corrode On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:27:49 -0800 (PST) Will Holway <brew987(a)yahoo.com> writes: > I actually have some citric acid in powdered form. > what is the method? Just let it soak overnight or > something? Do I need to first try to clean the > stainless steel as best I can then let it soak? > > Thanks, > WH > --- "Crist, Jonathan" <cristj(a)bsci.com> wrote: > > I agree with Dave - you typically need the nitric > > acid > > You probably can't find it as a homebrewer but Acid > > #5 from Five Star > > Chemicals works very well. It is a blend of nitric > > acid, phosphoric acid and > > other acids to help clean and passivate the surface. > > > > Another method to passivate stainless steel is with > > citric acid. This is > > safer and sometimes faster than nitric acid. > > Solutions with 4 to 10% citric > > acid (by weight) will safely remove the iron oxide > > and free iron and leave a > > chrome oxide rich (passivated) surface. > > > > Jonathan Crist > > > > > ---------- > > > From: David H Berg[SMTP:bergbrew@juno.com] > > > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 10:59 AM > > > To: brew987(a)yahoo.com > > > Cc: mba(a)thebarn.com > > > Subject: Re: Re-Passifying Stainless Steel > > > > > > Your need to use Nitric acid to pacify > > stainless--phosphoric won't cut > > > it. > > > > > > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:30:30 -0800 (PST) Will > > Holway <brew987(a)yahoo.com> > > > writes: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I think I saw some postings on this subject > > before. It > > > > has recently come to my attention that my method > > for > > > > cleaning up my 1/2 barrell kegs (using the 3M > > green > > > > scrubby pads) actually takes off some of the SS > > > > protective coating. I am curious if I can > > re-passify > > > > teh SS by using phosphoric acid. Does anyone > > know the > > > > "recipe" for doing this? I have not noticed any > > off > > > > flavors, or oxidation as of yet, but was curious > > of > > > > others' opinions of this etc., and if it is a > > > > reasonable course of action to pursue ... > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > WH > > > > WindRiver Brewing > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site > > hosting, just > > > > $8.95/month. > > > > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for > > less! > > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just > $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

24 years

RE: Re-Passifying Stainless Steel

by Crist, Jonathan

I'm also a metallurgist and we have gone overboard on passivation. The key to all of this is a clean surface. You need to clean the surface to remove all the organic residue and metallic residue on the surface. This would be true for citric or nitric acid passivation, or just letting the atmospheric oxygen do it's job. You need a clean surface. If you don't have rust, stay with your method. If you have rust you need to passivate the surface to remove the free iron that caused the rust. You can passivate with either a nitric acid solution or a citric acid solution, but the surface needs to be clean. A solution with 4-10% by weight citric acid should only need to be in contact with the cleaned surface for 30 minutes at room temperature to passivate. This is about the same time for a warm nitric acid solution. Either solution will remove iron oxide and free iron from the surface. Allow the surface to air dry after the acid rinse. > ---------- > From: Steve Piatz[SMTP:piatz@cray.com] > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 2:09 PM > To: bergbrew(a)juno.com > Cc: brew987(a)yahoo.com; mba(a)thebarn.com > Subject: Re: Re-Passifying Stainless Steel > > Here is a message from the HBD May 15, 2000 from John Palmer who is a > metallurgist. I think we may be going overboard in Will's kegs here. > Since I don't brew daily I can just get by with letting atmospheric > oxygen do the job for me when I need to scrub the kettle. > > > + Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:33:14 -0700 > + From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer(a)gte.net> > + Subject: Stainless passivation > + > + Passivating Stainless Steel > + A situation that often comes up is, "Hey, my stainless steel is > + rusting! Why? What can I do to fix it?" > + > + Stainless steel is stainless because of the protective chromium oxides > + on the surface. If those oxides are removed by scouring, or by > + reaction with bleach, then the iron in the steel is exposed and can be > + rusted. Stainless steel is also vulnerable to contamination by plain > + carbon steel, the kind found in tools, food cans, and steel wool. This > + non-stainless steel tends to rub off on the surface (due to > + iron-to-iron affinity), and readily rusts. Once rust has breached the > + chromium oxides, the iron in the stainless steel can also rust. Fixing > + this condition calls for re-passivation. > + > + Passivating stainless steel is normally accomplished in industry by > + dipping the part in a bath of nitric acid. Nitric acid dissolves any > + free iron or other contaminants from the surface, which cleans the > + metal, and it re-oxidizes the chromium; all in about 20 minutes. But > + you don't need a nitric acid bath to passivate. The key is to clean > + the stainless steel to bare metal. Once the metal is clean (and dry), > + the oxygen in the atmosphere will form the protective chromium oxides. > + The steel will be every bit as passivated as that which was dipped in > + acid. The only catch is that it takes longer-- about a week or two. > + > + To passivate stainless steel at home without using a nitric acid bath, > + you need to clean the surface of all dirt, oils and oxides. The best > + way to do this is to use an oxalic acid based cleanser like Bar > + Keepers Friend, RevereWare Cleanser, or Kleen King, and a non-metallic > + green scrubby pad. Don't use steel wool, or any metal pad, even > + stainless steel, because this will actually promote rust. Scour the > + surface thoroughly and then rinse and dry it with a towel. Leave it > + alone for a week or two and it will re-passivate itself. You should > + not have to do this procedure more than once, but it can be repeated > + as often as necessary. > + > + John Palmer > + www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ > > > > > David H Berg writes: > > > > I've never used citric acid, but for nitric you wash it with the nitric > > and let it air dry (ie, do not rinse). > > > > By the way, the reason you need to passivate stainless is so it remains > > stainless--without the protective coat it will stain and corrode > > > > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:27:49 -0800 (PST) Will Holway <brew987(a)yahoo.com> > > writes: > > > I actually have some citric acid in powdered form. > > > what is the method? Just let it soak overnight or > > > something? Do I need to first try to clean the > > > stainless steel as best I can then let it soak? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > WH > > > -- > Steve Piatz piatz(a)cray.com > Cray Inc. 651-605-9049 > 1340 Mendota Heights Road > Mendota Heights, MN 55120 >

24 years

An SS Educational Challenge!

by Rick Oftel

Wayne, When a professional speaks to a group of tinkerers, they start thinking. Personally, I think about 3 or 4 stainless steel "projects" that I wish I could do well. A few of us have heli-arc equipment and some of us have experience. What we could benefit from is possibly a refresher course or some general guidance. I know you are not just next door but thought the idea may spark some comment from the clubs this message reaches. How can we professionally complete some projects and what are the limits? My projects would include a really trick fermenter vessel, a powered mash mixer (already have good motor and gearbox) and a 20-23 gallon kettle (already have formed bottom). Beer anyone? Rick

24 years

Re: Re-Passifying Stainless Steel

by Wayne Theuer

Hi All, I had nothing better to do so I thought I'd join the conversation. Too many people have gotten carried away with trying to "re-passivate" their stainless steel kegs & parts and it is just not needed. Here's my 2 cents worth, I hope it helps. If the keg just has dirt & grime on it and you are using the 3M green synthetic scouring pad,(never use steel wool) there is no need to try to "re-passivate" the stainless keg. Clean it using your pad, hot water and a strong soap/detergent. Stainless is stainless all the way through. Cleaning it with the soap/detergent, is enough to allow it to reform its protective chromium oxide(which it probably never lost). It does this upon contact with the air anyway but the strong soap/detergent insures that it will oxidize. The only reasons I'd worry about passivating stainless steels are : 1. When stick welding stainless and the slag did not come off/you did not clean it off. 2. Welding sanitary stainless welds using a purge. 3. Screwing up and imbedding Ferrite into the surface of a stainless part. In points 1 and 2, the metal did not come in contact with oxygen so it could oxidize. Slag protects it from the air and so does a purge, therefore it could not oxidize to form the chromium oxide layer that makes it "stainless". Most generally it could be washed with a strong soap/detergent using hot water and that should be sufficient. Point 3 is more complicated and usually involves soaking the part in nitric acid or nitric acid and oxidizing salts heated from 130 deg. F to 160 deg. F. for periods as long as one hour to dissolve the ferrite. Stainless should be washed with a strong soap/detergent from time to time, that's the best way to preserve its shine. What most homebrewers need is a no nonsense seminar on metals used in brewing. Being a welder, welding educator and a welding consultant, there is nothing worse than trying to straighten out somebody else's screwups. I hope this helps. Cheers, Wayne -----Original Message----- From: Will Holway <brew987(a)yahoo.com> To: Crist, Jonathan <cristj(a)bsci.com>; mba(a)thebarn.com <mba(a)thebarn.com> Date: Monday, November 26, 2001 10:33 AM Subject: RE: Re-Passifying Stainless Steel >I actually have some citric acid in powdered form. >what is the method? Just let it soak overnight or >something? Do I need to first try to clean the >stainless steel as best I can then let it soak? > >Thanks, >WH >--- "Crist, Jonathan" <cristj(a)bsci.com> wrote: >> I agree with Dave - you typically need the nitric >> acid >> You probably can't find it as a homebrewer but Acid >> #5 from Five Star >> Chemicals works very well. It is a blend of nitric >> acid, phosphoric acid and >> other acids to help clean and passivate the surface. >> >> Another method to passivate stainless steel is with >> citric acid. This is >> safer and sometimes faster than nitric acid. >> Solutions with 4 to 10% citric >> acid (by weight) will safely remove the iron oxide >> and free iron and leave a >> chrome oxide rich (passivated) surface. >> >> Jonathan Crist >> >> > ---------- >> > From: David H Berg[SMTP:bergbrew@juno.com] >> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 10:59 AM >> > To: brew987(a)yahoo.com >> > Cc: mba(a)thebarn.com >> > Subject: Re: Re-Passifying Stainless Steel >> > >> > Your need to use Nitric acid to pacify >> stainless--phosphoric won't cut >> > it. >> > >> > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:30:30 -0800 (PST) Will >> Holway <brew987(a)yahoo.com> >> > writes: >> > > Hi, >> > > >> > > I think I saw some postings on this subject >> before. It >> > > has recently come to my attention that my method >> for >> > > cleaning up my 1/2 barrell kegs (using the 3M >> green >> > > scrubby pads) actually takes off some of the SS >> > > protective coating. I am curious if I can >> re-passify >> > > teh SS by using phosphoric acid. Does anyone >> know the >> > > "recipe" for doing this? I have not noticed any >> off >> > > flavors, or oxidation as of yet, but was curious >> of >> > > others' opinions of this etc., and if it is a >> > > reasonable course of action to pursue ... >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > WH >> > > WindRiver Brewing >> > > >> > > >> __________________________________________________ >> > > Do You Yahoo!? >> > > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site >> hosting, just >> > > $8.95/month. >> > > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 >> > >> > >> >________________________________________________________________ >> > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >> > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for >> less! >> > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. >> > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. >http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1

24 years

RE: Re-Passifying Stainless Steel

by Crist, Jonathan

I agree with Dave - you typically need the nitric acid You probably can't find it as a homebrewer but Acid #5 from Five Star Chemicals works very well. It is a blend of nitric acid, phosphoric acid and other acids to help clean and passivate the surface. Another method to passivate stainless steel is with citric acid. This is safer and sometimes faster than nitric acid. Solutions with 4 to 10% citric acid (by weight) will safely remove the iron oxide and free iron and leave a chrome oxide rich (passivated) surface. Jonathan Crist > ---------- > From: David H Berg[SMTP:bergbrew@juno.com] > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 10:59 AM > To: brew987(a)yahoo.com > Cc: mba(a)thebarn.com > Subject: Re: Re-Passifying Stainless Steel > > Your need to use Nitric acid to pacify stainless--phosphoric won't cut > it. > > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:30:30 -0800 (PST) Will Holway <brew987(a)yahoo.com> > writes: > > Hi, > > > > I think I saw some postings on this subject before. It > > has recently come to my attention that my method for > > cleaning up my 1/2 barrell kegs (using the 3M green > > scrubby pads) actually takes off some of the SS > > protective coating. I am curious if I can re-passify > > teh SS by using phosphoric acid. Does anyone know the > > "recipe" for doing this? I have not noticed any off > > flavors, or oxidation as of yet, but was curious of > > others' opinions of this etc., and if it is a > > reasonable course of action to pursue ... > > > > Thanks, > > WH > > WindRiver Brewing > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just > > $8.95/month. > > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. >

24 years

Re-Passifying Stainless Steel

by Will Holway

Hi, I think I saw some postings on this subject before. It has recently come to my attention that my method for cleaning up my 1/2 barrell kegs (using the 3M green scrubby pads) actually takes off some of the SS protective coating. I am curious if I can re-passify teh SS by using phosphoric acid. Does anyone know the "recipe" for doing this? I have not noticed any off flavors, or oxidation as of yet, but was curious of others' opinions of this etc., and if it is a reasonable course of action to pursue ... Thanks, WH WindRiver Brewing __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1

24 years

gravity

by Erik Nelson

Does anyone know what the gravity is for one pound of Corn Meal in one gallon of water. I am planning on doing a CAP(Pre-pro pils) and my Promash does not have it in the database. It has flaked maize, but I will be doing a traditional american double mash, like they did in the late 1800's and early 1900's before the volstead act was in force. Thanks Erik Nelson heimbrauer(a)astound.net

24 years

News

by Erik Nelson

I saw some not so good news on the Central florida homebrewers site when I went to look at a competition they are doing in jan. There link is http://cfhb.org/index.html But it say that the beer writer George Fix, who wrote the Vienna, Oktoberfest, Märzen book has cancer bad. The page has a spot where we can send him a note of encouragement. Erik Nelson CTB

24 years

Fall Tasting Winners

by SPARROW, JEFFREY C. [IT/1825]

Congratulations to Todd Ashman, Luke Kazmierski and Greg Browne for their victories in the 25th CBS Fall Tasting. As you can see from the list below, our local brewers defeated some very well respected breweries. For one weekend, malt ruled over hops! 1st Place - Flossmoor Station Imperial Eclipse Stout 2nd Place - Mickey Finn's Strong Scotch Ale 3rd Place - Flatlander's Ardennes Dubbel Alaskan Brewing, Juneau, Alaska - Alaskan Amber and Alaskan ESB Anchor Brewing, San Francisco, CA - Old Forghorn Bells Brewing, Kalamazoo, MI - Two Hearted Ale Flatlanders Restaurant & Brewery, Lincolnshire, IL - Ardennes Dubbel Flossmoor Station & Brewing, Flossmoor, IL - Imperial Eclipse Stout Goose Island Beer Company, Chicago, IL - Blue and Christmas Ale Gosser Brewery, Goss, Austria - Gosser Dark Lakefront Brewing, Milwaukee, WI - Riverwest Stein Beer Mickey Finns Brewery, Libertyville, IL - Strong Scotch Ale Plzensky Prazdroj, Pilsen, Czech Republic - Pilsner Urquell Rock Bottom Brewing, Chicago, IL - Sub Zero Barley Wine Rogue Brewing, Newport, OR - Shakespeare Stout Sierra Nevada Brewing, Chico, CA - Celebration Ale Sprecher Brewing, Glendale, WI - Doppelbock

24 years

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mba November 2001