Dave,

I've been Head Steward for about 6 very large competitions over the last few years and we're proud that the Upper Mississippi Mashout is one of the largest in the country.  We've also done a first round of the Nationals.  Both of these are around 500-600 entries, so that's lots of experience.  A common request is to have more copies of the guidelines on the tables, so while you may look up a detail 'now and then', Most judges do refer to them quite often to 'match the beer they are judging with the guidelines'.  And I've passed the tasting part, so that's not the issue here.

My concern is not 'aiding those who may not perform well on essay'.  I can probably out-write most people on familiar subjects.  My concern is the requirement to memorize so much information for the exam.  OG's, FG's, etc.  What you're doing is giving out degrees in brewing knowledge.  You are NOT certifying people to judge competitions.  If you are, then it's a pretty poor job.  Just do a review of some completed forms.  I've got one that says 'no significant flaws found' and has a score in the low 30s.  If there is no significant flaw, the score should be much higher.  The judge just wasn't very capable.

Test people on matching the guidelines to real beer in a competition environment.

Test people on their ability to pick out the flaws, even if they have to look up what the fix is.  That's where time needs to be spent.

I have no issue with the judging forms or what they ask for.  My only issue is to get real about what needs to be memorized for the written part of the exam.  Yes, the flash cards are terrific!  One of our club members created them.  The Study Guide is also good but Al's informal guide is absolutely fabulous! 

Finally, please don't take the elitist attitude that some judges have about the Stewards and other competition staff.  Your comment that 'judging isn't for everyone' sounds  like a put down.  Yes, all sorts of help is needed to run a competition.  What's disappointing, to me, is the quality of the judging, so let's get it better by focusing on what's important.

I'm looking forward to seeing the revised exam.  It's nice that some of my comments are making an impact.

Cheers!
//Mike Behrendt
MGBehrendt@mn.rr.com

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...
	well, I have others.   Groucho Marx


Houseman, David L wrote: 
While the form of the exam is changing, aiding those who may not perform
as well on essay as other forms of questions, the basic content isn't
changing, at least not significantly.  From time to time we do get
questions about why one would need to know these things when judging is
essentially open book.  But that's not really true.  Sure, we all look
up a detail now and then during judging  -- very few memorize the styles
completely, and I'm not one of them --- but when judging effectively,
one can't be reading the style guidelines and trying to match the beer
they are judging with the guidelines; we have to know and understand the
styles.   With only 10-12 minutes to judge and provide feedback for each
beer, judges need to really know the material going into the session and
then refer to the guidelines only to refresh memory or to look up some
fine points.

Similarly, in order to provide good feedback, knowledge of recipe
formulation, all-grain as well as extract brewing, hops, water, malts
and what can (and will) go wrong with beers needs to be understood by
the judge so that the judge can correctly help the brewer understand
what when wrong and how to fix it.   Yes, we could change judging so
that there is no written feedback, only judging like a best of show
round.  This is more or less what we do at the GABF.  But there we're
still judging up to 12+ beers in a session; time is an issue.  And the
judges need to understand the subtleties of the styles and what's right
and wrong with the beers.  Sometimes it does come down to the fine
points.   

There are effective study aids for those that want to take/re-take the
exam.   Flash cards are a great help, and thanks to one of our members,
they are available on the web site.   The study guide has essentially
all the questions, in one form or another.  As Al says, it's more
difficult to achieve a high score on the exam, but we try to give
examinees the benefit of the doubt wherever possible, so passing isn't
that difficult.  And if one takes the exam but doesn't pass, they are
then in our database as a member of the BJCP and do earn judging points
when judging.   

Hopefully the exam changes will encourage more people to study and take
the BJCP exam.  But judging isn't for everyone.  Clubs and competitions
need all sorts of help as stewards and staff.  

Dave Houseman
BJCP Competition Director


-----Original Message-----
From: BJCP_Board@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BJCP_Board@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of aboyce@mn.rr.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 6:07 PM
To: mba@thebarn.com; mnbrewers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BJCP Board] RE: Changes to BJCP exam

Mike-

Thanks for your thoughts on the BJCP exam.  Actually, there IS a
large-scale revamping of the exam going on, so the BJCP must be
listening to people like you! :-D

  
I just don't see why memorizing stuff about the history of each 
category
      
should be part of this when judges have the guidelines...

I think if you had said "memorizing stuff about OG, FG and IBUs" instead
of "history" you would have made a more valid point.  But you DON'T need
to have the history of the style memorized to get a passing score of 60
on the BJCP exam.  To advance further in the program you probably would.
At the higher levels, the BJCP expects that a judge could CONVERSE about
world beer styles WITHOUT having a book in front of them.  

The new exam will be implemented in phases... the FIRST phase, does just
what you suggest -

  
Are you certifying judges or giving out degrees in brewing?
      

... it replaces the "Boiling wort" question with a selection of T/F
questions about Judging ethics and Best Practices in competitions.

Also, the first phase attempts to cut down on the writing element by
supplying three short lines for the "Purposes of the BJCP", and an empty
grid to be filled out with the judging ranks.  The reason for keeping
this section was a belief that a person in the BJCP should know at least
the purpose of the organization s/he is about to join, and a minimal
understanding of how judges advance.

  
...but I'll not try to memorize how to describe and differentiate 
between
      
the beers of
Edinburgh, London and Burton.

Proposed changes in PHASE TWO of the exam are to replace the "world
beers"
question with four judging sheets, asking the candidate to write a
"perfect" scoresheet for four different beer styles.  This attempts to
implement what you suggest, testing further whether a candidate can
write good score sheets.

  
I especially don't care about creating an all-grain recipe as I've 
done
      
well enough with extract and grains and will stay with that.

I feel that, even though you've chosen not to be an all-grain brewer, I
feel understanding the PRINCIPLES of all-grain brewing, and
understanding that some flavor characteristics DO HAPPEN when choosing
your grist, accomplishing crushing, and selecting your mashing technique
can and DO make you a better judge.  I think that's the purpose of this
question - not necessarily to convert you to all-grain.

We can continue this at the meeting on Saturday if you like.  I'll
forward your comments on to the committee that is researching the new
exam.

- Al

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Mike Behrendt MGBehrendt@mn.rr.com
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:22:33 -0600
To: mba@thebarn.com
Subject: [Fwd: Re: BJCP Points Recorded]


Hi Folks!

Just had some of Surly's beer at the opening of the Hometown MiniTour at
Old Chicago.  Get out there and support a new local brewery!  The staff
are also great people - Omar and Todd in particular!

So, drinking Surly goes along with the kind of week I'm having with one
particular project at work, and that's all I'll say about work in a beer
related email.  But, then I got a note about the points I earned as Head
Steward for MCAB and I got my little lecture going about the value of
the written exam for BJCP. 

I've only heard people agree with me in one-on-one conversations and
thought, gee, what does the whole club think?  Or, just the members who
respond to email because work is slow or they love computers.

Now then, take a minute and put your thoughts together and let the BJCP
know........that's the only way it will get changed.  Or, if you think
I'm wrong, let me know and I'll just keep brewing, drinking and sit
quietly in the corner (with a good beer, of course).

Cheers!

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Re: BJCP Points Recorded
Date: 	Wed, 29 Mar 2006 15:28:06 -0600
From: 	Mike Behrendt <MGBehrendt@mn.rr.com>
To: 	BJCP Program Administrator <program_admin@bjcp.org>
References: 	<20060329200036.29816.qmail@morebeer.com>



thanks!

Now someone needs to convince me that I should retake the written part
of the exam.........I still believe it goes way beyond qualifying people
to be competition judges...........I've passed that part. 

I just don't see why memorizing stuff about the history of each
category, etc., etc., should be part of this when judges have the
guidelines and any other material open at a competition if they need to
know it.

I've brewed for enough year and have enough medals. 

And some of the score sheets I get show that you should emphasize better
tasting ability than essay writing.  You're not focusing on the correct
issues.  Scores of high 30's with comments of 'no serious flaws' just
doesn't cut it. 

So, I'll continue to brew and help out as a Head Steward, but I'll not
try to memorize how to describe and differentiate between the beers of
Edinburgh, London and Burton.

I especially don't care about creating an all-grain recipe as I've done
well enough with extract and grains and will stay with that.

So, I'd suggest a revamping of the exam and perhaps your whole purpose
in the judging of homebrewing.  Are you certifying judges or giving out
degrees in brewing?

I'm open for any conversations on this.   Just provide some good beer at

the same time.

Cheers!

//Mike Behrendt
MGBehrendt@mn.rr.com

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...
	well, I have others.   Groucho Marx 



BJCP Program Administrator wrote:

  
Dear Michael Behrendt,
The competition organizer has submitted 0 judging point(s) and 1.5
    
non-judging point(s) in your name for "MCAB VIII".  These points will
appear in your judge record when the next update cycle is published to
the web.
  
 

    




--
//Mike Behrendt
MGBehrendt@mn.rr.com

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...
	well, I have others.   Groucho Marx 



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