RE: [BJCP Board] RE: Changes to BJCP exam

Mike, We are certifying people to be judges. But we're having to measure people somewhat indirectly. This has been a debate for a long time. In the end we agreed that a written and tasting exam, coupled with experience is the only practical way we can conduct certifications. We've even considered having examinees sit for a verbal Q&A and tastings in front of the Grand Masters, sort of like doctoral exams, but rejected that one. Not everyone who scores well on the written exam will be a good judge. Not everyone who is a good judge scored well on the exam. But it's the process we have. Changes to the exam are taking place to hopefully fix some elements of the testing. We have Ed Wolfe leading that committee. He's an expert in standardized testing, was a post-doc at the Education Testing Service and is a professor in this area at Va Tech. So the exam comes with some degree of expertise and validation. There's no point in carrying on a debate on this topic. But I will suggest that you can do well on the exam without quoting a single OG or FG. Certainly not get a 90 but easily pass. Mike you ARE a judge as far as the BJCP is concerned. You are an Apprentice. Your tasting score was quite good. So why not judge? At some point you may want to retake the exam to get a higher score, so accumulate the judge points; they will allow you to move up as you get higher scores. There is nothing to prevent you from judging now. Dave ________________________________ From: Mike Behrendt [mailto:MGBehrendt@mn.rr.com] Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 2:58 PM To: Houseman, David L Cc: BJCP_Board(a)yahoogroups.com; mba(a)thebarn.com; mnbrewers(a)yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [BJCP Board] RE: Changes to BJCP exam Dave, I've been Head Steward for about 6 very large competitions over the last few years and we're proud that the Upper Mississippi Mashout is one of the largest in the country. We've also done a first round of the Nationals. Both of these are around 500-600 entries, so that's lots of experience. A common request is to have more copies of the guidelines on the tables, so while you may look up a detail 'now and then', Most judges do refer to them quite often to 'match the beer they are judging with the guidelines'. And I've passed the tasting part, so that's not the issue here. My concern is not 'aiding those who may not perform well on essay'. I can probably out-write most people on familiar subjects. My concern is the requirement to memorize so much information for the exam. OG's, FG's, etc. What you're doing is giving out degrees in brewing knowledge. You are NOT certifying people to judge competitions. If you are, then it's a pretty poor job. Just do a review of some completed forms. I've got one that says 'no significant flaws found' and has a score in the low 30s. If there is no significant flaw, the score should be much higher. The judge just wasn't very capable. Test people on matching the guidelines to real beer in a competition environment. Test people on their ability to pick out the flaws, even if they have to look up what the fix is. That's where time needs to be spent. I have no issue with the judging forms or what they ask for. My only issue is to get real about what needs to be memorized for the written part of the exam. Yes, the flash cards are terrific! One of our club members created them. The Study Guide is also good but Al's informal guide is absolutely fabulous! Finally, please don't take the elitist attitude that some judges have about the Stewards and other competition staff. Your comment that 'judging isn't for everyone' sounds like a put down. Yes, all sorts of help is needed to run a competition. What's disappointing, to me, is the quality of the judging, so let's get it better by focusing on what's important. I'm looking forward to seeing the revised exam. It's nice that some of my comments are making an impact. Cheers! //Mike Behrendt MGBehrendt(a)mn.rr.com Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho Marx Houseman, David L wrote: While the form of the exam is changing, aiding those who may not perform as well on essay as other forms of questions, the basic content isn't changing, at least not significantly. From time to time we do get questions about why one would need to know these things when judging is essentially open book. But that's not really true. Sure, we all look up a detail now and then during judging -- very few memorize the styles completely, and I'm not one of them --- but when judging effectively, one can't be reading the style guidelines and trying to match the beer they are judging with the guidelines; we have to know and understand the styles. With only 10-12 minutes to judge and provide feedback for each beer, judges need to really know the material going into the session and then refer to the guidelines only to refresh memory or to look up some fine points. Similarly, in order to provide good feedback, knowledge of recipe formulation, all-grain as well as extract brewing, hops, water, malts and what can (and will) go wrong with beers needs to be understood by the judge so that the judge can correctly help the brewer understand what when wrong and how to fix it. Yes, we could change judging so that there is no written feedback, only judging like a best of show round. This is more or less what we do at the GABF. But there we're still judging up to 12+ beers in a session; time is an issue. And the judges need to understand the subtleties of the styles and what's right and wrong with the beers. Sometimes it does come down to the fine points. There are effective study aids for those that want to take/re-take the exam. Flash cards are a great help, and thanks to one of our members, they are available on the web site. The study guide has essentially all the questions, in one form or another. As Al says, it's more difficult to achieve a high score on the exam, but we try to give examinees the benefit of the doubt wherever possible, so passing isn't that difficult. And if one takes the exam but doesn't pass, they are then in our database as a member of the BJCP and do earn judging points when judging. Hopefully the exam changes will encourage more people to study and take the BJCP exam. But judging isn't for everyone. Clubs and competitions need all sorts of help as stewards and staff. Dave Houseman BJCP Competition Director -----Original Message----- From: BJCP_Board(a)yahoogroups.com [mailto:BJCP_Board@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aboyce(a)mn.rr.com Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 6:07 PM To: mba(a)thebarn.com; mnbrewers(a)yahoogroups.com Subject: [BJCP Board] RE: Changes to BJCP exam Mike- Thanks for your thoughts on the BJCP exam. Actually, there IS a large-scale revamping of the exam going on, so the BJCP must be listening to people like you! :-D I just don't see why memorizing stuff about the history of each category should be part of this when judges have the guidelines... I think if you had said "memorizing stuff about OG, FG and IBUs" instead of "history" you would have made a more valid point. But you DON'T need to have the history of the style memorized to get a passing score of 60 on the BJCP exam. To advance further in the program you probably would. At the higher levels, the BJCP expects that a judge could CONVERSE about world beer styles WITHOUT having a book in front of them. The new exam will be implemented in phases... the FIRST phase, does just what you suggest - Are you certifying judges or giving out degrees in brewing? ... it replaces the "Boiling wort" question with a selection of T/F questions about Judging ethics and Best Practices in competitions. Also, the first phase attempts to cut down on the writing element by supplying three short lines for the "Purposes of the BJCP", and an empty grid to be filled out with the judging ranks. The reason for keeping this section was a belief that a person in the BJCP should know at least the purpose of the organization s/he is about to join, and a minimal understanding of how judges advance. ...but I'll not try to memorize how to describe and differentiate between the beers of Edinburgh, London and Burton. Proposed changes in PHASE TWO of the exam are to replace the "world beers" question with four judging sheets, asking the candidate to write a "perfect" scoresheet for four different beer styles. This attempts to implement what you suggest, testing further whether a candidate can write good score sheets. I especially don't care about creating an all-grain recipe as I've done well enough with extract and grains and will stay with that. I feel that, even though you've chosen not to be an all-grain brewer, I feel understanding the PRINCIPLES of all-grain brewing, and understanding that some flavor characteristics DO HAPPEN when choosing your grist, accomplishing crushing, and selecting your mashing technique can and DO make you a better judge. I think that's the purpose of this question - not necessarily to convert you to all-grain. We can continue this at the meeting on Saturday if you like. I'll forward your comments on to the committee that is researching the new exam. - Al Original Message: ----------------- From: Mike Behrendt MGBehrendt(a)mn.rr.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 16:22:33 -0600 To: mba(a)thebarn.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: BJCP Points Recorded] Hi Folks! Just had some of Surly's beer at the opening of the Hometown MiniTour at Old Chicago. Get out there and support a new local brewery! The staff are also great people - Omar and Todd in particular! So, drinking Surly goes along with the kind of week I'm having with one particular project at work, and that's all I'll say about work in a beer related email. But, then I got a note about the points I earned as Head Steward for MCAB and I got my little lecture going about the value of the written exam for BJCP. I've only heard people agree with me in one-on-one conversations and thought, gee, what does the whole club think? Or, just the members who respond to email because work is slow or they love computers. Now then, take a minute and put your thoughts together and let the BJCP know........that's the only way it will get changed. Or, if you think I'm wrong, let me know and I'll just keep brewing, drinking and sit quietly in the corner (with a good beer, of course). Cheers! -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: BJCP Points Recorded Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 15:28:06 -0600 From: Mike Behrendt &lt;MGBehrendt(a)mn.rr.com&gt; <mailto:MGBehrendt@mn.rr.com> To: BJCP Program Administrator &lt;program_admin(a)bjcp.org&gt; <mailto:program_admin@bjcp.org> References: &lt;20060329200036.29816.qmail(a)morebeer.com&gt; <mailto:20060329200036.29816.qmail@morebeer.com> thanks! Now someone needs to convince me that I should retake the written part of the exam.........I still believe it goes way beyond qualifying people to be competition judges...........I've passed that part. I just don't see why memorizing stuff about the history of each category, etc., etc., should be part of this when judges have the guidelines and any other material open at a competition if they need to know it. I've brewed for enough year and have enough medals. And some of the score sheets I get show that you should emphasize better tasting ability than essay writing. You're not focusing on the correct issues. Scores of high 30's with comments of 'no serious flaws' just doesn't cut it. So, I'll continue to brew and help out as a Head Steward, but I'll not try to memorize how to describe and differentiate between the beers of Edinburgh, London and Burton. I especially don't care about creating an all-grain recipe as I've done well enough with extract and grains and will stay with that. So, I'd suggest a revamping of the exam and perhaps your whole purpose in the judging of homebrewing. Are you certifying judges or giving out degrees in brewing? I'm open for any conversations on this. Just provide some good beer at the same time. Cheers! //Mike Behrendt MGBehrendt(a)mn.rr.com Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho Marx BJCP Program Administrator wrote: Dear Michael Behrendt, The competition organizer has submitted 0 judging point(s) and 1.5 non-judging point(s) in your name for "MCAB VIII". These points will appear in your judge record when the next update cycle is published to the web. -- //Mike Behrendt MGBehrendt(a)mn.rr.com Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others. Groucho Marx -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BJCP_Board/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: BJCP_Board-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/